Reptile Shows...what if anything can be done to bring them back?

One of the reasons less out of State guys are in Daytona was the change in State law which made it illegal to sell Burms and Retics to 99% of all buyers, even before the Fed law change....

I think you'll have trouble finding any show that isn't heavily ball pythons anymore...but that's also what sells. Watching people walking around who have made purchases and more than anything else, they are carrying bp's. I hear that as a constant complaint about shows from people, that they want to see more variety and different things at shows...but they just want to see them, not buy them. What people buy at shows, are bp's. If they aren't selling, breeders don't make anything by setting to for people to just look at. When people really start buying other species and creating a demand for them, they'll begin showing up at expo's more. Bp's are also a saturated and screwed up market, too many people with too little business sense, that think the way to make sales is to be the cheapest, so they end up in a race to the bottom to see who can price their animals lowest...and in the end, they just crash the price of a morph for everyone. This isn't just on the bottom end either, this happens with higher end animals also, I would really say it begins from pricing at around 10k and on down. (fake advertised prices vs legitimate selling prices doesn't help either imho but that's another thread probably).

Back to shows, Daytona this year was really good from a vendors side for myself and the friends who I travel and vend with, that would include animals selling for anywhere from about 50$ all the way up to about 16k. I really believe that there was a turn around from the bad ecomony side of things, to people starting to finally spend money again, about a year ago. Daytona was good last year, it was better this year. The last two Tinley shows were really good for us and I'm hoping in just a few weeks to experience more of the same from it.

Daytona for an out of state breeder has also been a piece of cake for the last few years. It does mean getting the permit and having your ducks in a row with when you produced animals, but if you keep feeding cards on babies you produced or document that at least and can show them what they want, it's a friendly greeting and handshake, and they're on to the next table. Who I see have more of an issue are the flippers and traders, people who don't know when their animals are produced as well, or ones that keep no tracking on their animals at all.

Tinley is one of the best shows in the country. The overall quality of animals is great and while balls are still the majority, it probably has one of the better showings of non-bp stuff for any show around. The crowd coming in seems to come ready to spend money (or has for the last couple of shows)...to sell bp's you do have to be willing to make deals with people it seems, but if you work with them some, you can make sales.

I love the comment above that people through the door does not equate to buyers through the door...solve that and you can run as big a show as you want and you'll have vendors blowing up your phone wanting to vend it. Thats when everybody wins, I think too many promoters forget that.

I think there are many good points here but one that hasnt been addressed is simply the downward turn of the national economy over the past 10 years. When it comes to choosing between making rent or car payments and buying another snake (with all its associated care costs to factor), the former will win out. Maybe it took longer to hit this market, or maybe it just took longer for people to notice.
I always enjoy going to the shows for every reason mentioned, but especially, as a hobbyist and not a breeder or bulk buyer, to buy an animal in person, at a reasonable discount not being swallowed by shipping costs. I almost never leave a show empty handed - whether its a new animal, feeders or supplies - but its gotten harder the last couple of years but more and more you have vendors selling the same things, at the same prices, as each other. I always like to do business in person, internet can't beat that, and I make a day out of it with the kids too . I've noticed the BP saturation at the local NY shows over the past few years and found it annoying. Now that I'm in Chicago, I can't wait to check out the NARBC show in 2 weeks.

Daytona this year was really good from a vendors side for myself and the friends who I travel and vend with, that would include animals selling for anywhere from about 50$ all the way up to about 16k.

That's great to hear! I'm comparing this year's show to shows from 9 or 10 years ago so that's good news if there has been a slight upturn.
By the way, I'm not trying to bash ball pythons. I have an appreciation for all reptiles but I would like to see more balance. Maybe ball pythons are what sells but I'm mostly a colubrid guy and I used to spend $2500-3000 on snakes, caging and supplies every year at Daytona. I had $1500 this year to spend and came home empty handed. I think there are many people who would spend money if they found what they were looking for.

I think Lloyd hit it on the head. Reptile enthusiasts who are looking for something other than ball pythons expect pickings to be slim so they either don't go or just go to look around. If I had the opportunity to go to the Hamm Reptile Show I would save up for a year.

Originally Posted by bigjej

I think there are many good points here but one that hasnt been addressed is simply the downward turn of the national economy over the past 10 years. .....
....I can't wait to check out the NARBC show in 2 weeks.

Actually I did mention it, personally I think things have been starting to pick back up for the last year.

As for Tinley, I hope you enjoy the show, I'm sure I will!

Originally Posted by gila7150

That's great to hear! I'm comparing this year's show to shows from 9 or 10 years ago so that's good news if there has been a slight upturn.
By the way, I'm not trying to bash ball pythons. I have an appreciation for all reptiles but I would like to see more balance. Maybe ball pythons are what sells but I'm mostly a colubrid guy and I used to spend $2500-3000 on snakes, caging and supplies every year at Daytona. I had $1500 this year to spend and came home empty handed. I think there are many people who would spend money if they found what they were looking for.

I think Lloyd hit it on the head. Reptile enthusiasts who are looking for something other than ball pythons expect pickings to be slim so they either don't go or just go to look around. If I had the opportunity to go to the Hamm Reptile Show I would save up for a year.

Daytona is definitely not what it was in years past, and it was certainly down in size even from last year...vendors and crowd both. For having a smaller crowd coming in though, for us anyways, it seemed like a larger majority of people who attended were there to buy, so sales were up for us.

I totally get what you're saying about slim pickings for non-bp animals, but they are what drives the market now. There are definitely demands for other animals, but it takes getting lucky some there with having the right buyers walk in for the species you keep. Sand boas moved great for me at Daytona where other shows this year I might as well have left them at home...I hadn't sold a single spotted python prior to Daytona this year either and sold 5 of 6 that I had there. Womas I sold out before Daytona even got here this season. Other species besides bp's do sell, but not like bp's do consistantly. It's also much easier to sell a 300$ bp than it is a 300$ sand boa...as much as I love the other species, bp's really are where the bulk of the market is right now. With this kind of hit and miss shows, looking for the right crowd for xyz species to come in and buy, I think it makes it worth it more for a lot of people in the other species to skip larger shows and just do online sales. Last year I sold very few of the species that I did this season, but it felt like we couldn't have brought enough hognose...this year I think we may have sold two.

If we don't lose our hobby to restrictive new legislature, I do think that will eventually shift to something else from bp's dominating the market, just like colubrids were where it was at during the 90's, just like leopard gecko's dominated the gecko world so much at one time. I don't know what it will take for bp's to wind down with new stuff constantly coming in, and there's no telling how many new incredible morphs Noah is still sitting on over in Africa waiting to release.

For the record, even though they are about 30% of my collection, I'm really not a fan of them. They are quirky, go off feeding for no reason at times (sometimes for months), can be unpredictable as far as when females will breed (people start breeding them sometimes in november and are still breeding her in june hoping she'll go), can have inconsistant growth patterns (some females are easily ready to breed at 2 yrs old, others take 5 sometimes) eggs are easy to hatch though and people love them...and you can about pick whatever color and pattern you want one in...which is the only reason I started working with them, pairing up two snakes and having 8-16-32 possible combo's in a clutch when you're only averaging 6-8 eggs at a time, makes it a lot of fun seeing what's going to hatch out.

I just seem to see things from the opposite direction of what I hear a lot of times, I believe buyers control the market and are really what drives what we see on tables at shows. If the masses were buying colubrids again, or bcc/bci, or whatever other xyz lizardsnake family/species, then thats what you would see on tables more.

I read a few of the above posts, but I'll admit not all of them. So if I say something someone has already said, I apologize.

As for shows, I agree that the frequency of them in certain areas have definitely saturated the "show" market. There use to be a certain aspect of excitement for a show coming into the area. Now, if you miss one... just wait a month or so and it will be right back (not really a month but you get the point)
Also, I will say that at certain shows, where just about anything is allowed there outside of the reptile and arachnid community, that it just brings a flea market(ish) feel. You begin to forget that it is a "Reptile Show"

Also, there are certain business types that get shunned. As in, at shows where certain businesses have an "exclusive" deal with the show, it prevents smaller companies from selling, and also prevents those attending from having more choices. This does however mostly fit toward "feeder" items, but still.... If there can be 40 tables of one species of snake, then if someone runs a "feeder" company, they should be allowed to vend as well, if they pay for their table section ect. IMO

And then it comes down to one last point, which as a small business owner I believe is a big thing. Promotion, promotion, promotion.
Half the time, there is very little publicity of a show coming around, and if there is, its just on the radio or online. Word of mouth goes so far, but there are still other options out there for event promotion.
That's my quick take on things.

There is a show in the middle of georgia that used to be a really good reptile show and was just a few times a year, it might have even started as twice a year, now it's five times a year and is just what you're describing...so many non reptile/animal related tables that it feels like a flea market with a few reptile tables...and many of those are import junk, with very little in the way of quality animals there.

I do think promotion is important, but where and how? I hear people talking about doing newspaper/radio/tv adds on local stations, or billboards around town, but how much good does that really do? The bulk of the people that brings in are going to be the ones looking for a cheap trip to a reptile zoo and not serious buyers...so that's good for who's running the show, but not the vendors. Sales for that crowd are going to be nickel and dime stuff for first time buyers or buying a cheap animal for their kid that they see as a disposable animal. To bring in the crowd a show really needs, I think the promotion at minimum needs to be for that state and any surrounding ones, reaching out to anything that would be within about a 4-5 hour drive, to reach enough serious hobbyists. The task there though, is convincing the serious reptile people, that the show is worth driving 5 hours to, over the other junk shows that have saturated the market, that this show will be worth driving 5 hours to over another one that may only be an hour or two from their home the following weekend.

If you have been to one of the Reptile super shows you will see that it is alive and well. Attendance is massive. packed with vendors as well.all square footage is occupied and there are no empty tables or booths. I have been to all the major expos all over this country and been going for almost 20 years all the way back to the beginning of the NRBE in orlando. The super show also has the largest diversity of species in the U.S. including some of the most rare and obscure animals available in the hobby. one issue with the old shows is that reputation can't carry you forever and old attitudes that were tolerable when people made money lose their novelty when you dont profit. They do nothing to keep things fresh and little is spent on advertising. I am not commenting on all the little shows they dont count to me as i find very few in the country worth going to even if they are local. So really the issue is regional. In parts of California they are going very strong and few can argue the success of a show that packs a 100,000 plus square foot building with vendors and attendees.