Coloration Ethics

ok, the shrimp in flamingos diets is what turns them pink right justyn? in natual diets of leos do you think they eat alot of shrimp> or carrots, espeially given there geographic and environmental range> i mean i see the nutritional benifits of beta carotene and what not but using it ONLY to increase certain colors... pinks, oranges ect.
lets look at this differently.......
lets say a breeder csuppliments there geckos correctly and they are fed right but the breeder haas found a way by messing with their diet to become much paler... while still very healthy the color is dulled and drab and now because of this sells it as whatevernameyouwanttocallit....... claiming it genetic from a whateveryouwantotcallit bloodline or lets so the stressed geckos you refered to as stressed wernt in fact stressed but rather diet induced... you bring them home and feed them your normal diet and your dull gecko is now bright orange or bright yellow????

I think the point which would sperate honesty from dishonesty would be the representation of the color as genetic when there is no reasonable genetic cause.

Bloodline becomes a bit touchy, since a bloodline can be represented merely as animals coming from the breeding group of a certain dealer.

Stating that there is a direct recessive trait responsible for the condition would simply be false representation of the product.

someone mentioned that beta caretone or other supplements enhance coloration etc. i know this may be the case for other species such as the flamingo (which get their pink coloration from the algae they eat in the wild)...but does anyone have ANY written or published literature/proof that this is the case in leopard geckos???

if so please cut/paste or supply the links. thanks
-jon

I do have probably the most dramatic proof.



Only change was supplementation.

Note that the second image was photoshopped to bring out the gecko from a dark picture, the gecko isn't quite as solid a yellow (still has a faded pastel quality to it in real life), but the color is spot on.

betacarotene (sp?) is a dye. remember the Juice Tiger. it was a juicer (and probably still is). well from my parents owning one of these i learned that carrot juice will dye your skin (mainly your hands) and nails. thats right... dye. if you stop drinking carrot juice your hands will eventually go back to normal. now because this is internal it wont shed off like kool aid or gatorade or whatever. instead it needs time to fade away. the real question in my opinion is:
Is betacarotene beneficial to a leopard geckos diet and should it be part of thier diet?
if so than everyone should be using it. if not than you are dying your geckos internally.

if i bought a tangerine gecko with strong orange and it faded to a yellow withion a few months i would feel cheated.

p.s. i wonder what would happen if you implemented betacarotene into a flamingos diet. an orange flamingo?

Beta carentene is turned in to Vitamin A inside the body. Vitamin A is a beneficial, if not essential. I think beta carentene is converted as needed into Vitamin A but I don't know this for a fact 100%. I would be very careful when supplementing leopard geckos to make sure they are not getting too much Vitamin A, as this can be toxic in high levels and cause problems.

I gut load my feeders with a variety of foods, including carrots, kale, apples, oranges, potatoes, as well as chick mash (for mealworms) and a high quality cricket chow for the crickets. I truly believe that is you gut load your feeders properly you really do not need to supplement with vitamins, but once or twice a month probably doesn't hurt.

in other words your saying betacarotene has the potential to be toxic in large amounts because it is metabolized into vitamin A, which in large amounts is toxic to leopard geckos?

im sure gutloading is fine. weather it be carrots or whatever. adding additional beta carotene would not be neccessary if you were doing that tho. although a little here and there (as included with a multivitamin supplement for reptiles) for good measure couldnt hurt.

pumping a gecko full of betacarotene is obviously more risk than reward tho. and it seems like cheating to me. betacarotene does not stimulate the body to produce higher ampunts of orange pigment, it dyes the skin from the inside. seems like cheating to me.

Yeah, I agree there is no reason to "pump" a leo full of beta caretene or Vitamin A to enhance coloration. It is not worth the health risks involved. Maybe someday some enthusiatic hobbiest will do an experiment involving leopard geckos and supplementation, diet etc. I wish I had the time and space to do it, I would! Oh well maybe someday.

those pics u posted...was that one of the "ghost" hypos from knreptiles??? have u contacted them about it? what was their explanation?

very disconcerning to me (and should be to other hobbyist/buyers), since i've seen "ghost" or "faded" leopard geckos priced slightly higher...

-jon

Yes that is a ghost. But first understand that it remained a ghost while in my collection. It was not until I changed brands of supplements to TRex that the color changed, and it did so in under a week! My thoughts right now aren't so negative about the breeder as they are curious about the supplementation.