Carryover from a thread about chams going off-topic...

Originally posted by Seamus Haley
Have since at least '74.

Thing here is... it's a stupid law. But it is the law... as a responsible, law abiding, permit holding herper in Massachusetts I feel the only way to change said law is by OBEYING it and establishing a degree of credibility for the industry before proposing changes to the legislation. As such is my continued position on the matter, I would feel obligated to report any illegal shipment or ownership of species which are prohibited to the appropriate law enforcement agencies. I hope I am making myself VERY clear on this point, so as to prevent any misunderstanding.

Hi Seamus,

I don't even know if the law is all that stupid as long as the permitting process is fair and reasonable. I don't want my neighbors running around with poisonous species or killing off endangered ones without making them report to someone once in a while, though I'd think at least the better understood chams belong on the exclusion list.

I have no problem with your position at all. In the early '90's or so when I was paying attention, the NEHS was working with the state to change the law, and species I was interested in keeping were being made legal without a permit. I started seeing chams popping up in a pet store or two and erroneously jumped to the conclusion that they had been added to the exclusion list as well. Now that I'm renewing my interest in the hobby, I should have been more careful to make sure. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, as they say. I sincerely appreciate that you caught my error before the animals were shipped. I'll head over to the Saltonstall building on Monday and get the permits ball rolling. Hopefully it's not something that will take too long to process provided I have acceptable answers for their questions.

And, just to be clear: I am considering these animals based on their being captive bred as advertised. I have a moral objection to taking them from the wild for my purposes irrespective of the legal requirements.

PS: Were you a member of NEHS back between '88 and '94 sometime? Your name seems vaguely familliar from that time in my life, but my memory isn't very good...

Thanks again.

I don't even know if the law is all that stupid as long as the permitting process is fair and reasonable.

Well... the reasons behind it are questionable. It was put into place to stop the collection of wild specimins, but the illegal species are only those which "look exotic" so Chams need a permit... GTPs and ETBs... but not other species which are frequently collected (In a suatainable manner) but not as flashy. Similarly monitors require permits because they are "dangerous" but green iguanas don't... If the laws had originally been written by individuals who understood the pet trade, it would have made a world of difference in their specifics and their application.

In the early '90's or so when I was paying attention, the NEHS was working with the state to change the law, and species I was interested in keeping were being made legal without a permit

The NEHS is constantly working towards the goal of a more reasonable and well thought out application of the state laws but haven't had much progress. Chams still require permits, any shops selling them could potentially lose their liscence to operate.

I'll head over to the Saltonstall building on Monday and get the permits ball rolling. Hopefully it's not something that will take too long to process provided I have acceptable answers for their questions.

Personally I'd suggest just calling Fish and Wildlife and asking for Bob Arini, he's the individual pretty much solely responsible for the permit application process and the forms aren't used frequently enough to have on hand anywhere... If you get ahold of him, he'll happily mail everything you need and more detailed specifics about the requirements for approval. The application process time seems to vary a bit depending on how many might be lined up, but if you have your act together you'll likely get a response within a few weeks, tops. Generally quicker.

I am considering these animals based on their being captive bred as advertised.

The requirements for a permit include *proof* of captive production, which generally means a notarized statement from the breeder... But Neil indicated that the original breder of one of the animals was unknown and that some of the others came from LLL, who isn't exactly notorious for dealing in captive animals. Established animals sure... but imports are cheaper for some species.

Were you a member of NEHS back between '88 and '94 sometime? Your name seems vaguely familliar from that time in my life, but my memory isn't very good.

Yes, although my activity within the society has always been greatly limited by personal time constraints, so I wasn't particularly active... If you did remember me, it's likely just as a short bald guy in a leather jacket.

Originally posted by Seamus Haley
Well... the reasons behind it are questionable. ..

All true. This state can be so frustrating at times...

Personally I'd suggest just calling Fish and Wildlife and asking for Bob Arini...

Thanks very much for the tip. I'll give him a call on Monday.

Seamus,

Thanks for explaining my concern mych more eloquently than I did.

Regards.

Just for the record.... except for the one Male Panther (which the guy who sold him to me has had him since he was 4 weeks old), I have had the other Panther AND the pair of Veils since they were 5 weeks old.... LLL guaranteed me they ARE Captive born, as did A-! Reptiles who bred the Veils themselves.... I will contact the owner of the Male Panther to see if he can remember who he got him from.... There's very little chance that anybody imports baby Chams, it would be too hard on them and most would never make the trip alive....

Tom, if need be, I have no problem returning your money if you don't want to go through with this deal because of the permits, but, I will also be glad to hold them for you till you DO get the proper paperwork in order and do everything legally....

Neil

I'll make the calls to find out Monday what the timeframe for the permits and the probability of success will be. The NEHS site indicates that the permits won't be too hard to get as long as I have my act together, and I think I can convince F&W that I do. Once I have the forms and requirements in front of me we'll figure out how to proceed. See what luck you have tracking down that fourth breeder. I'll bet I need that sooner than later...

So we'll put it all on hold pending more info.

In case anyone Mass related is still reading...

Seamus described the process about the same as F&W did to me on the phone today. Permits are pretty easy to get if there is verifiable proof that the animals are all captive bred and if you can demonstrate that you are competent, but time consuming on the weeks to months time scale depending on how busy they are and the nature of the permit. Right now they sound like they are particularly busy for some reason.

In other news, the Asst. Director is considering whether or not to put some chameleon species on the exemption list anyway. The biggest reason they were and remain permit only was the "near 100% mortality rate" in pet stores when people were bringing in Jacksons chameleons from Hawaii full of nematodes and stuck in aquariums at high temps. Now that the industry is much more knowledgeable and captive bred animals are readily available, he's willing to revisit the issue. But he has no idea if/when the decision will be made. I got off the phone feeling like they were at least trying to do the right thing, just far more slowly than I'd like. At least I agree with the reason they were excluded from the list in the first place, even if I think they should have been added by now.

So I'll have a permit (eventually).

Maybe when I have my first round of babies they'll be on the exemption list and I can even sell them locally. If I can find anyone I'd trust with them.