Difficult Questions...

I am sorry, you are right Rich. You have not begged for money from anyone, only allowed Lucille to do the begging on the BOI. I should have put more thought into my post.
I also thought that at some point herpvenue( sorry for the herpenue typo) was yours. My bad.
As for what I have done for this site. Not a whole lot. I have added my thoughts to posts where I felt I had something to say. Maybe I should have posted more?
I have spent no money on animal purchases through this site, and am on a very low budget, but did send you 90 dollars that I didn't get recognized for, because at the time, you weren't offering contributor coins. I guess donations only count when you ask for them. 90 bucks is about 10% of my total amount I have spent on online animal purchases. Maybe its not much as just 90 bucks, but how many here can say they have sent you 10% of their animal purchases.
Also, was it not me that clued you into what Alan was doing in the admin section? Did you not call me and say that was going to be kept hush hush? Then the next day you posted the email that I sent in confidence?Although I haven't been here much financially, I felt that telling you something that was going on that might effect your suit might be thought of as help. I guess I was wrong.
I agree that my wording about begging was out of line. I misspoke. I also thought I couls share my opinion, but my "platform " is aparently not padded enough.

Well, since you brought up that email, I have to admit that I have my suspicions about it. The thought had crossed my mind that it was supposed to get to me. If Alan would try to shake down Jeff for something in return for giving him this supposed information, then certainly I don't think he would shirk from trying to shake me down in order to keep it from Jeff, now would he?

Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Why would Alan have confided something like that to a couple of people that any reasonable person would have kept private?

BTW, you said I posted that email? Yes I did. In the private moderator's forum. So?

Oh well, no matter. That's all past history anyway. I'm not really interested in talking about Alan Hall anyway and am not going to waste any more of my time even thinking about him and that incident.

=============

And yes, you did give a donation for $90. I had forgotten. But that was back in March of 2003, so excuse me if that was far enough back for it to slip my memory. But thank you for the donation and thank you for reminding me. I certainly do believe I thanked you for it, which was all the recognition anyone got for their donations at the time. The icon you now see was a later development, which you know about, and was not applied retroactively. So I am not sure what the point of your barb is about when you quip they only apply when asked for. Even so, making a donation does not give anyone a permanent icon for their posts.

And as far as Lucille is concerned, she volunteered to try to drum up financial support for this site and approached me about it. I NEVER solicited that sort of assistance from her. Are you seriously suggesting that I should have turned that down? That I should have said, "Heck no, Lucille! So many people are throwing money at me that I certainly don't need any more financial help here!" I am certain you would have done that in my shoes, right?

So Dave, if you don't like my plan I am considering, that is OK with me. You don't have to take part it in, you know. I expect that I will lose some people if I implement it, and I am quite prepared for that eventuality.

Heck, now that I think of it, maybe a general admission fee isn't such a bad idea after all....

Rich, I wasn't trying to toot my insignificant little horn by saying what I had done. I have done very little, and admit that. I simple answered your questions of me.
I wholeheartedly agree that something HAS to be done, and it HAS to be done now to get money into the Fauna budget. If a fee for use is the only option, why not go ahead and impelement it? Why even allow the poll to run its course if it is inevitable? If 80% of people say they don't agree with it, will you not implement the fee? If it has to be done, it has to be done, and I will be one of the people paying. I think there are other options, but I don't know what kind of time limit you have.
I know that when money is sent to you, you will make the best decisions for the use of the money. I said that when I donated the money I got back from Neil. I just thought that if it was explained to the mases what the money was to be used for, then more people would be understanding of the situation.
You might get more "Oh, I understand that, here's my 35 bucks" than "Screw that I'm not paying to read a forum" if it were outlined. I do understand that it is private though.
Not that it even matters, and I don't know why I am typing this, but at one time , just prior to me donating, there was a list of people who donated at the top of the BOI. Then I donated, and the list was gone because some people didn't want recognition. I don't care for the recognition either, but it comes in handy when you don't have a contributors icon and someone says "What have you done?" If i had given 5 dollars a year for the next 18 years, I would have an icon. But I gave it all at once, and at that time, the largest donation on the public list , even by a business was 100 bucks.

Dave,

I am running this as long as it takes for me to get as much feedback as possible and for me to chew on the idea as long as possible before I made a decision. I don't have a timeline. This just pops to the forefront of my conscisousness every now and again like a fly that you just can't hit with the flyswatter.

I have known this is needed for a long time, but the technology behind the message board just wasn't capable of assisting me. Now it is, but the question still remains, "is it time?"

Some people are saying, "Sure you are worthy of being paid for your efforts here, but charge someone else! Don't charge for what I want to use!" Charging more for banner ads will cause advertisers to leave. So where am I then? Charge solely for classifieds placed here will just nip that growth in the bud too, so where will I be then? Just charging a fee for the sake of dumming up income is not good enough for me to be able to justify it. I need a way to better control the posts that are made on the BOI as well as people posting classifieds on this site to keep them all above board as much as possible. As far as I have been able to determine, THIS is the only way that can be accomplished. And I have been thinking about this dilemma for a darned long time.

To be honest, if I do go with this plan and I find that only a meagre minority of people feel that it is worth spending $10 on, and the BOI as well as the site dies because of it, then hell, GOOD RIDDANCE! If it is just not worth it to the majority of the people here to keep it alive, then it is not worth it to me either. I don't know how I can spell it out any plainer then that.

Should I have just implemented this and surprised everyone overnight? Heck, I don't know. Sure would have saved me a bunch of time writing all of these replies lately. But I just feel that I need to explain my reasoning so people will understand WHY I do something. I don't expect everyone to agree, and even against real good arguments I may still feel the way I do. Maybe the time isn't NOW, but sooner or later there is no avoiding this.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

So yeah, people saved money because this site I run kept them from making a mistake. This site helped point out people that may very well have taken LOTS of people for a ride. But yet when I start suggesting that maybe I need to start charging something as a return on my efforts, I get grilled over it and third degreed over my "motives"? Next few threads, let's see you all line up and tell me what YOU personally have done to help ANY industry at all. To help any bunch of people you have never met, by taking money out of your pocket, time out of your life, and your own efforts to do so.

Well, this is like the 4th or 5th related thread where I let everyone know that I would pay a membership fee, and left it at that. I feel I need to add additional opinions as it relates to these threads. That is, I personally am getting tired of the large number of people who say.

1. It is a great site and I potentially saved a bunch of money by checking out the BOI, but since it's always been free I would leave if money was charged.

2. I'm too poor, I don't have the money..........etc.
and related comments.

I think it's all crap. Like many people here I am way short of money, I did not add one single herp to my collection this whole past year. Did not "save" myself from being ripped-off, by using the BOI, because I didn't purchase anything. I still donated $10 just because this is an awesome site, then forked out another $25 and became a contributing member.

People are saying, I'm too poor to pay...........yet they came here to check out the BOI, cause they didn't want to get ripped-off........which is it? you're poor or you are spending money on herps. Boils down to, you are either to f........ cheap or feel the BOI is some god given right that you should be able to use for free to save yourself money from being ripped off.

Come on people we are talking about $10 or maybe $30 a year. The price of a 12 pack or two (how much is beer? I drink rather infrequently, so not to sure). The price of 1 or 2 movie tickets, or a coule magazines.

So or get off the pot.

As far as thinking that a fee will change the BOI, like many I have expressed some of these same concerns. So I can see that side of the "arguement", given that this is Rich's site if he determines that a fee is indeed the way to go, and that it also applies to the BOI, then that's the way it is.

I've decided to be optimistic and hope for the best, that being.... after some initial pissing and moaning by many of us, that we decide that this place is indeed worth every penny, and membership and participation continues and grows, and that the fee also cleans up the BOI a little bit, by making it harder to pay fees to keep reregistering.

Worst case scenario, a lot of people bail out, and rely on the other big site, and many people who no longer have the free BOI to bail them out, get ripped-off and places like bearded pets and the dozens of other thieves, start making money again and return to the other site with their ads, since we all know that it takes forever to get them banned from advertising over there, and that's with the knowledge of the BOI. Just think how it would be for all the people who didn't want to pay the ten bucks. They would have no way to know that "such and such" business, was the new "bearded pets" because the second they posted any kind of "inquiry" or complaint or anything remotely related to "checking out" an advertiser, the post would get deleted and you'd probably get banned from the site. Meanwhile.......the dozens or hopefully hundreds of us left over here "talking amongst ourselves" like people think might happen if a fee is charged, would be saving our hard earned cash, because we would know about those new business'

So if Rich decides a fee will affect the BOI in particular, I say if you are just too cheap or feel that the BOI is some kind of "right" and don't want to pay.....don't let the door hit you on the way .

If you are like me and many others, and don't feel there is anything wrong with a modest fee, but have reservations about it because of the effect it may have on the BOI, we will just have to ride it out and hope that the outcome is the best case scenario.
That's my take on the situation.

I don't think that .03 cents ($10.00) to .10 cents ($35.00) a day it too much for even the poorest person out there. Is there anyone out there who can honestly say they don't get a dimes worth help, satisfaction, entertainment, relaxation, or information from Fauna a day?

Seamus,

You were out of line with your comment towards Lucille. She is putting forth a great effort to help Fauna. It's a lot more than the pissing, moaning and asking why this, why that you have provided. Rich doesn't need to lie on the couch and tell you all his problems and be psychoanalyzed, questioned or second guessed by you. Were this a multimillion dollar business merger and you the majority owner, the questioning would be valid. This is a community forum, which is in need of community support. You have stated that you'd leave if a fee is implemented, which shows your lack of support. Why stick around? The writing is on the wall, and short of some member dying and leaving their money to Fauna there will be a fee.

"And if I gave a rat's ass what you thought Lucille, I might have asked your opinion before posting it"

Seamus, in fact, you sent me a private IM about all this on the 28th:

01-28-2005 Rich and Fauna
04:45 PM Seamus Haley


I have gone out of my way to spend huge amounts of time thinking and developing ways to help, here. I have done this on my own because I saw where I could use my skills and talents to make a positive difference in this Fauna community. Anyone here could do the same, and some have done just that, and done well.

I need not account to people who merely write diatribes.

I appreciate the support of people who email me with offers to help, which has happened a lot, lately.
I appreciate people who have emailed me, saying they have become new contributors.
I appreciate all the people who contribute time, and posts, and their money, and goodwill to Fauna.
Most of all, I appreciate Rich; for this site.

Rich,

Vacation time!!! Serioiusly, grab a couple days, get away from everyone on this board and on the last day (no other days) come up with a game plan and implement it. All this discussion back and forth is just adding to your aggravation. Man, you engineer/programming types and all your meetings

I think the general forums should be free. Extra bells and whistles available to "contributors" and auction item donors. Classifieds and advertizing charged for. Isn't that SOP for other sites of this type?

I am of the opinion this "proposal" has gotten a little out of hand like those damn Salvation Army people at Christmas time. It is just a bit annoying. But like any charity a full disclosure must be avaliable for review by those who donated. And if it isn't listed as a charity or a not for profit organization all donations are taxable under federal tax code. Which will make it a big mess at tax time.

And I can side with Rich about frustrations on running a site. But lets face cold hard facts here. Total space and bandwidth charges for a site that has as many hits as this one and takes up the same amount of space is $300 a month with my guy and if it is an adult site he takes 2% of net profits also which can add up to a nice chunck of change if you are doing 60k a month in total revenues. With no banner ads being sold that is $300 buck out of pocket(if indeed no ads are being sold) Plus the time and effort put into it, it leaves one to wonder why not just sell the site and come out ahead?