DNR Wraps Up Largest Case of Illegal Traffic in Reptiles

I think you mean Tim Cole...him and a group of others were discussing the merits and failings of g/f and f/wildlife...including begging ignorance when it came to illegal dealings with Heloderma, etc...
Yeah, the whole "sting" thing is ridiculous...I was caught up in one a number of years back, and according to the rap sheet published in the paper, I came off like Al Capone in the herp world...absolutely stupid...luckily, the judge saw through the tape, and almost all of the charges were dropped...(they wanted to bust me for a felony for possessing owl feathers that were on a "dream catcher" I had purchased for my girlfriend ...come on )
Like the others, I wonder how many of these "busts" were for corn snakes, etc...I noticed they did not list the animals.

greg

If you were referring to my post, no I did not mean the person that you listed. Also, Slither was a joint nationwide operation, henec the same name under differnt jurisdictions.

Here is a good one I saw in the newspaper some time ago:

There was this about 50 year old lady who went around picking up already shed bald eagle feathers that were on the ground. She lived near big colonies of wild bald eagles. The nice lady made some kind of real nice ornament out of the feathers and sent it to Hillary Clinton while she was in the White House.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife grabbed her, and they threw the book at her. I don't know if she is even out of federal prison yet!

This all took place some time ago but for whatever reason the government is publicising the hell out of it now. Just yesterday they had a long piece about it on the local NBC affiliate. They showed undercover camera and audio of dealers buying illegal turtles from the undercover agents. Funny too, as they were talking about the Michigan dealers who were breaking the law, the video was mostly of guys from Ohio, in Ohio, buying illegal animals. I love when we get slammed for things that did not even happen here. And the joke of it all is when they really did catch a bad guy doing something illegal with animals, and they had 50-60+ charges against them, they let them walk with a fine. They put other herp dealers in jail for herp related offenses while at the same time, guys who had illegal guns and drugs are walking the streets. None of it makes any sense. I really have a hard time believing that if you surveyed any number of Americans and asked them if they would rather have people jailed for selling turtles or for having illegal guns and drug operations, they would not pick turtles.

Is there any real legal precedent on that "ignorance is no excuse" claim? Quite frankly, with the number of laws at all levels the average person is liable for, it is pretty much impossible for anyone to even know about them all. How do you even know that something you want to do is illegal? Contact an attorney before you do ANYTHING?

Maybe at one time that concept could hold water, but I don't believe it can any longer. Heck, even the IRS will tell you that their own staff cannot be relied on to give accurate information if you call them with questions about tax law. The defense "I was told to do it that way by an IRS representative" is not considered an adequate defense if you are later found in violation of the law.

So again, just HOW is the average person supposed to be realistically in compliance with every single law about every single issue in this country?

On the nose Rich. The violations that they hit everyone with stemming from the Columbus, Ohio show were like that. we had all been setting up at the Columbus show every month for 12-15 years as vendors and then they quyietly change an abscure law, watch us for 2 years as we do the same business we have always done, and then cite us all for breaking the law under the new provisions that were enacted without notice. If vendors were all made aware of the new law(s) I have absolutely no doubt that the vast majority would have instantly changed the way we do things to fit the new format, I mean for all of us that had to go to court and pay anywhere from hundreds to thousands of dollars in fines and costs over hatchling black ratsnake mutations that we sold for $25-75!!!! It is just obscene.

State spends $2.1 million, state gets $58k in fines, fined individuals make way more than the fines they paid and could care less about the fines. This was all worthwhile. $5 says most are back out there selling illegal animals next week.

1) the state did not spend $2.1 mil, the country did. As I have said repeatedly, this was a multi-jurisdictional effort, cross country and with federal authorities. No state has the money to spend on this area of enforcement to that degree.

2) many of the people "caught" in this sting operation were law abiding citizens who have no criminal record and in fact did not poach, lie or sell illegal animals but rather failed to fill out the appropriate forms because they had no knowledge of the requirement. I was personally cited for selling a hatchling captive bred albino black ratsnake for $35 in Ohio 4 years ago. Do you think that I went out and poached that? Do you think I am a hardened career criminal who believes that I can make a profit selling a $35 animal and then paying $500 in costs in fines?

3) some people paid $2000-10,000 for turtles worth $50. Yeah, they are really making a ton of money! How about you donate that $5 to this site now for being wrong.

Originally Posted by evansnakes

1) the state did not spend $2.1 mil, the country did. As I have said repeatedly, this was a multi-jurisdictional effort, cross country and with federal authorities. No state has the money to spend on this area of enforcement to that degree.

Great, so it was my tax dollars instead.....

2) many of the people "caught" in this sting operation were law abiding citizens who have no criminal record and in fact did not poach, lie or sell illegal animals but rather failed to fill out the appropriate forms because they had no knowledge of the requirement. I was personally cited for selling a hatchling captive bred albino black ratsnake for $35 in Ohio 4 years ago. Do you think that I went out and poached that? Do you think I am a hardened career criminal who believes that I can make a profit selling a $35 animal and then paying $500 in costs in fines?

Sucks for you that you got fined but I never said you were a hardened criminal nor is your name even listed above so why would you assume I am talking about you? Sucks for the people that got busted that were truly regular joes but more often than not people know they are doing something wrong.....I guess in this case maybe most did not. One thing is for sure though, all sellers should know the laws and how they apply to them. The laws are there and accessible to the public, you only have yourself to blame for not keeping up to date on them and not being fully aware.

3) some people paid $2000-10,000 for turtles worth $50. Yeah, they are really making a ton of money! How about you donate that $5 to this site now for being wrong.

Nowhere in this thread are the dollar amounts of the animals listed so how do you assume I'd know what they were fined for or what the profit could be. Fact of the matter is most people caught selling illegal animals are doing so to make money and many do quite well. How about you donate $5 to the site for wasting bandwidth flaming me.

No you did not know the facts and instead of asking questions you made statements that are false. Many of the people involved are top people in this industry. Top show promoters, top tier breeders, etc. They make good money doing things legally and do not want the negative attention brought to this industry by people like you who assume that everyone who breaks the law is both aware that they are and profitting from it, which you have stated here. I was not "flaming" you and please do not attribute your sad little chat-speak to me. When you make false statements concerning the place I live, friends of mine and improtant issues in the industry that I have been a part of most of my life, I damn sure will correct you. Simple. Know the facts or ask the questions before you make statements as to the intentions of people you don't know and situations you don't know anything about.