REPTICON Show Series Exclusive Sponsorship Agreement with FL Chams

Originally Posted by Chameleon Kingdom

the main issue brought up in this thread is the issue between me and Repticon.

Yet you brought in a third company to throw sh!t at because you were angry, not because you have any BIO relevant business deal between the two of you to dispute.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Kingdom

In my first post I asked for opinions on this issue and other users brought up Mike more than I have.

You did put Mike's company in the title of the thread though, correct?

Originally Posted by Chameleon Kingdom

Also, you two are probably aware of the fact that Chris of CLC used to do shows for 2 years for him for free...many of them by himself. Then after he had his OWN booth at the last show, and then Mike asks for exclusivity. Because of that, I am being victimized.

Chris of CLC may very well be fine with you bringing up his name and company in this thread but typically you should let people enter into these discussions on their own when they aren't the target of the thread.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Kingdom

That wasnoton the terms when I signed up. I believe Billy added that info after our email correspondence, as the 14th was the date of the last email I sent him.

Since you are making absolute statements and implying that Billy schemed you, I look forward to your next post with the copy of the terms that you saved from when you signed up that proves your accusations. You do have a copy of them saved to back that up right? You aren't just making that accusations based on your memory of the terms before you had a problem, right?

Nic, its a pretty big deal when you slam people's businesses and livelihoods. If you are going to make accusations about them being dishonest, you definitely should post the proof.

Chris

Originally Posted by Chameleon Kingdom

My money went through, and shortly after, I received a refund from Billy Healy, saying "Thank you for your interest in our Columbia show, however we have entered a sponsorship agreement with FL Chams that prohibits the participation of another "chameleons only" exhibitor at our shows. We can not offer you space at this time.

Billy can call it an exclusive sponsorship or anything he likes, it smells like the ole buddy buddy system is alive and well at the Repticon shows.

Billy trying to prevent competition by excluding another chameleon breeder is going against what all us americans love...low prices. competition between many sellers keep the prices low.

Nic,

I will apologize again to you for any personal distress that this situation might be causing you, as that is truly not our intent. The timing of your post makes it difficult for our team to respond, as we are headed to Columbia and will be occupied with load-in and the operation of the show over the next three days.

Instead of attempting to re-explain the details of our decision, I am instead inserting below the chain of communications between us. Anyone who is interested can form their own judgments based on both sides of the conversation.

I will only add that I have not lied to you, and I'm not even sure what you're claiming that I lied to you about. I have attempted to be completely honest and straightforward in our communications, although I realize that the message that I was delivering is not one that you wanted to hear. Also, lets be clear that there was no "check" that was cashed. You submitted money through paypal, which I refunded in a timely manner, twice.

As for setting up a table in the parking lot or at the show doors, that would be no more legal or acceptable than putting up a table outside of a Petco or a Walmart, or any other retail outlet located on privately owned property.

I will not be able to follow this thread after this posting until after the Columbia show, but I will repeat my offer to talk with you face-to-face in Columbia. Just let me know when you'll be coming so I can make sure that we have appropriate staffing at the ticket table so that I can break away. Otherwise, I won't be able to contribute much more to this discussion until after the show.

Thanks,

Billy Healy
www.Repticon.com




----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Billy healy <reptileshows@yahoo.com>
To: Chameleon Kingdom <chameleonkingdom@gmail.com>
Cc: cathy <carolinareptileshows@gmail.com>; Patty Siamson-Healy <patty@repticon.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 3:46:26 AM
Subject: Re: PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP

Nic,

I'm truly sorry that this is so upsetting to you. I have no personal bias against you, as to the best of my knowledge I have never met you, and I have no idea who you are. My entire impression of you is based on the e-mails that we have exchanged.

As a former attorney, I'm clear on what our legal rights are, and we are completely within our rights to determine which exhibitors are allowed to exhibit at our shows. This scenario is directly comparable to a situation we often face with venues that we would like to promote shows in. On several occasions we have attempted to rent space at an event venue to promote a reptile show, but have been denied that opportunity by the venue because another promoter hosts a similar show at the venue during the year, and the venue grants that promoter exclusive rights to hosting pet shows at their facility. This is a common, completely legal process that apparently makes good business sense to the event venues. We might think that it is in their best interest to have as many shows as possible at their venue, offering different experiences to their customer base, but it is not our decision to make. In situations like this, we have sought out alternate venues or continued to build or business in other areas. On no occasion have we attempted to pressure a venue into renting to us, as we understand that such actions would only strain any potential relationship that we might have with the venue in the future if their situation changes (ie - the competing promoter moves to another venue.) This situation is not unique, but is rather a common business practice.

If we needed to further justify our decisions based on our posted vendor rules, which we do not, please note that our rules have always allowed us to remove vendors who create a hostile situation with other vendors or event staff. Any increasing hostility in your correspondence only serves to further justify a decision to deny your request for space at our shows.

If your goal is to build your business, there are many other avenues open to a breeder seeking to sell chameleons, and I would strongly encourage you to pursue them. A quick look at Kingsnake shows over a dozen other shows happening from now through the Columbia show weekend. If you have no other means of selling your stock, any of those shows can provide you with an outlet to move forward with your business. I would suggest to you that your energies would be best devoted to building your business through other avenues rather than threatening us or trying to diminish the standing of other vendors, but how you choose to spend your time and money is of course your decision. If you truly do wish to participate in our shows at some point in the future, attempting to coerce us into violating our agreement with FL Chams through threats of legal action is not your most effective choice.

Again, I am sorry for any distress or personal frustration that you might be experiencing. Our only goal here is to build our business, not to tear down anyone else. If you will be attending the Columbia show as a guest, I'd be happy to speak with you there face-to-face.

Thank you,

Billy Healy
www.Repticon.com
(863) 268-4273 (voice)
(863) 268-8191 (fax)


From: Chameleon Kingdom <chameleonkingdom@gmail.com>
To: Billy healy <reptileshows@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 3:48:08 PM
Subject: Re: PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP

Billy,

I do not understand why you cant offer me my ONE table because...

1. I paid for two tables two and a half weeks ago, well before the cutoff, and instead of e-mailing me telling me I need to bring something else, you assumed all I can bring is Chameleons.
2. Nothing was ever posted about chameleon only vendors not being able to participate before I signed up for my two tables.
3. You had my money via paypal on the night of the 12th, and you have posted that tables were sold out as of 3/13 inferring that the last table was sold on the 13th, which means you had my money before the last table was sold. I was in before the cutoff, and its only fair that you allow me a space, because you received my money before the last person on the 13th!

At this point I now feel that I am a victim of a personal bias between you and I. I have tried to be as nice as possible throughout our correspondence, and Cathy and I had a very nice conversation on the phone today about the issue, and she understood completely where I was coming from. She really didn't know much about the agreement between Repticon and Fl chams the first time I spoke to her, which leads me to believe that you and your staff did not come to a joint decision on this matter, and rather a private deal between you and Mike. I can understand agreement between cricket vendors, because theyre buying 3+ tables, and bringing truckloads of feeders, but to root out a small chameleon breeder, that has been working for months growing animals to size to finally sell, I feel like you have royally screwed me over here. The restrictions were not posted on the website when I bought my two tables, and they still have not been posted. I planned on attending every show from this event on with the exception of Miami and Jacksonville, but I dont know how this will be possible now that your giving me such a hard time with this show. I truly respected the Repticon series, and I have always had a great time attending them (besides the lack of chameleon vendors), but this ordeal has forced me to contact the South Carolina better business bureau about the issue, and I would like a copy of the contract between you and Mike of Fl Chams faxed to me at 770-421-1185 for review. I dont want to take legal action on this issue, but the circumstances may leave me no choice.

Nic Herrett
Chameleon Kingdom



----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Billy healy <reptileshows@yahoo.com>
To: Chameleon Kingdom <chameleonkingdom@gmail.com>
Cc: cathy <carolinareptileshows@gmail.com>; Patty Siamson-Healy <patty@repticon.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:53:31 PM
Subject: Re: PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP

Nick,

Thank you for expressing your opinions. I do want to ensure that guests have the opportunity to choose from a wide selection of animals, which is why in our agreement with FL Chams, we ensured that the true "little guy" who has a mix of animals, including chameleons, will not be affected by the sponsorship agreement.

Exclusive agreements are not new to our shows. We've had them in the past for feeder insects, feeder rodents, and certain dry goods, and still offer them occasionally on a show-by-show basis to vendors who add something unique to the show, but can not justify traveling to show if they have several competitors. We always weigh our decision very carefully, and we won't enter into several exclusive agreements at a time, for just the reasons that you mentioned.

Looking at our show series overall, we will be able to present a better show to more guests across several states by guaranteeing that high-quality chameleons will be available at every show we produce, from Miami to Pensacola, to the Carolinas and beyond, than we could without this agreement. The Columbia show has consistently sold out for vendors weeks in advance - guests there will not suffer from a lack of choice in animals, while guests in some of our other cities will now have access to higher quality animals than they otherwise might have. I understand that this does not help your particular business situation, but we have to make decisions that are the best interest of our shows and guests overall.

As you mentioned, we are now sold-out for Columbia, and we are not able to offer space to any additional vendors. You will not be able to participate in this show, and any further monies that you forward will again be refunded.

Thank you,

Billy Healy
www.Repticon.com
(863) 268-4273 (voice)
(863) 268-8191 (fax)


From: Chameleon Kingdom <chameleonkingdom@gmail.com>
To: Billy healy <reptileshows@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 11:04:53 PM
Subject: Re: PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP

Billy,

It still leaves me wondering why you have an office voice machine, if you, or your wife don't bother calling anyone back. I paid for a single table last night (3/12/09) and you posted the show is sold out as of today (3/13/09), so I really hope you allow me to enter the show, being you had my money prior to the posted cutoff, AND that you had my money for two tables 2 weeks ago, and refunded me without even working something out. I have made deals with a couple people I know locally, and I will be bringing chameleon cages, feeder supplies, leopard geckos, and as of today, crested geckos. The reason I am so upset about this issue is because for me, chameleons aren't just a "product", but a deep passion I have for the animals. When I am told that I have to bring other animals in order to participate that, quite frankly, I have no interest in whatsoever, it deeply bothers me. At that point it is clear to me that all in charge of these shows are not supportive of the growth of the reptile hobby as a whole, but you are more worried about providing certain "products" to your "consumers", and thats wrong. I would have thought you would love to see the overall growth in the series, and that you allowing Fl chams to monopolize the series as the only "chameleon only" vendor, is a poor business decision on both yours and mikes part, because its very discouraging to the small guys out there like myself, that have no interest in other types of reptiles. This story has been voiced to the chameleon community, and I will be posting the issue on fauna just to hear some other opinions on the issue. Its really giving Mike a bad name, the man who claims to support the hobby so much. Give me a break, how is he supporting the chameleon hobby if no one is allowed to participate? Thats just selfishness and greed to me, and others are seeing this the same way. Not to mention he did this because of a personal dispute between him and Chris Carter of Clean Line Chameleons, and now, I am being victimized. What if a ball python breeder, bearded dragon breeder, leopard gecko breeder, etc decided to come to similar agreement? You would be out of a show, and your "consumers" would see the same animals and bloodlines every time, just like they are going to see the same chameleons as they do at Mikes booth every show. Have you ever thought that maybe people attending the shows would enjoy seeing other, bloodlines, locales, and species that Mike Monge doesn't carry? So where do you draw the line?

Nic Herrett
The Chameleon Kingdom "Plus"


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Billy healy <reptileshows@yahoo.com>
To: chameleonkingdom@gmail.com
Cc: cathy <carolinareptileshows@gmail.com>; Patty Siamson-Healy <patty@repticon.com>
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 6:52:52 AM
Subject: Re: PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP

Nick,

I appreciate your concerns, however the availability of my time to communicate is dictated neither by your vacation schedule nor by your preference for forms of communication.

I am not able to call you during the day today, however if you forward your concerns via e-mail to this address I will respond this evening.

Billy Healy
www.Repticon.com
(863) 268-4273 (voice)
(863) 268-8191 (fax)



----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chameleon Kingdom <chameleonkingdom@gmail.com>
To: billy@repticon.com
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:09:51 AM
Subject: PLEASE CONTACT ME ASAP

Billy,

I have spoken to Cathy on the phone with my concerns, left multiple messages on the Repticon main phone line machine, and have yet to receive a phone call from you with my concern of you allowing FL Chams to monopolize the series as the only chameleon only vendor. Cathy told me three days ago you should be calling. I just returned to town from vacation and now have access to a computer. I expected a little more professionalism, and prompt communication from all in charge of this show series, but I was naive to have such expectations. Please contact me immediately at 678-232-2001, I would like to speak with you personally than correspond via e-mail.


--
Nic Herrett
The Chameleon Kingdom
678-232-2001

Originally Posted by KNOBTAIL

where does it stop ! Does this mean that if another vendor shows there chameleons at there table, they will be asked to take them off.. How stupid could these promoters be to be so hard up to expose themselves to the anger of vendors who draw the people in the first place.......More importantly, where does it stop. Once you open the flood gates for one exclusivity then someone else is going to come along and feel entitled to the same thing.

This type of behavior is indicative of an attempt to protect those that are willing to purchase more tables to satisfy the necessary required amount to run a show.. The consequences are worth the wrath of the smaller dealer who may have to bow out.. At least thats what the promoters are hoping for. Very poor business ethics and certainly what goes around , comes around. The answer is simple. Boycott the shows.

I completely agree with you Jerry, it seems like all it takes to be the only seller of your species at a Repticon show is to wave a check at Billy.

I can certainly see why you would be upset. I probably would also be upset if I were in your position.

But I think you should try to look at it from the show promoter's position. You mentioned about it being about money as if that was a bad thing. Of course promoting a show is about money - it would surely fail if the bottom line was not the main consideration in their decisions. From what you said, they will still allow others to sell chameleons at the show, just not chameleon specialty breeders. So it is not a complete exclusive. With shows becoming so commonplace, and such low priced fleamarkets, it is more and more difficult for most vendors to show a profit. So it is probably difficult to get a well known, specialty breeder into some of the lesser known, less profitable shows. By getting Mike to agree to provide some excitement at THOSE shows, he has to offer something in return. Looks like the exclusive on the good shows was the carrot. If Repticon had specialty chameleon breeders lining up for ALL of his shows, I doubt they would have offered the special deal.

I don't know the details of your contract with Repticon, and can't speak to that. But as to the general idea of exclusive contracts, I can see both pros and cons for both parties. Don't forget, the vendor will be required to incur expenses to vend at possibly unprofitable shows in order reap the rewards of the good shows. So it is not all roses for either side.

Seems to me that if the arrangement works for both parties, it is a good business decision. But of course, other vendors and attendees who don't like the arrangement are free to voice their opinions, or to boycott the show. It will be up to Repticon to decide if that affects business enough to change their policy. OTOH, it might be so successful, if they carefully choose sponsors, that they do more of the same. I am not a promoter, so can't say. But as long as they allow other dealers and non-specialty breeders to also sell chameleons, or whatever other exclusives they give, then the buyers will still have plenty of choices.

I can understand you being angry (at Repticon, since that is who you are dealing with, not Fl. Chams). But I see it as a business decision that others may be able to influence, but only Repticon can have the final say as to whether it is good or bad for their business.

ok this was touched on but never truly addressed by REPTICON.

If this guy had more than just chameleons would you allow him to vend? Is there any specification on what "more" means to REPTICON? If I had chameleons and at least one other type of reptile or amphibian for slae would you sell me tables so that I could sell any/all of my reptiles/amphibs at your show?

Thanks,
Russ

If this guy had more than just chameleons would you allow him to vend?

You beat me to it. Depending on the answer to this, it may be OK. It is their show, and should have the right to do whatever they choose. But, depending on the answer, it could work out. I think you should meet him "face to face" and see what he has to say. He may say if you were to bring a "friend" who, say works with corn snakes, preregister saying so, it may be OK. Or he may say F off, who knows. I have not read the terms for myself, but will very soon as I plan on trying to attend as a vendor to at least 2 shows next year.

Originally Posted by ssshane

I have not read the terms for myself, but will very soon as I plan on trying to attend as a vendor to at least 2 shows next year.

Good idea Shane, hopefully the terms will not block you from doing this show because someone else has the exclusive rights to sell what it is your trying to sell.

It's pretty funny you guys are acting as if you are trying to beat the "system" by creating different animal scenarios at the shows but the truth of the matter is that Repticon is a (great) smaller easily controlled show with limited amount of tables. They can tell if your a chameleon breeder or vendor, trust me. How do many of you know how this show is with a lot of people posting here that are from NY, OH, CA, DE, NV and NJ? It is truly an asset to have great chameleon breeder at EVERY repticon show because he is "exclusive" whether it may be unfavorable to some. The pros in my opinion surely outweigh the cons. I wish some other breeders would sign a contract to attend every show. I used to be very into keeping/breeding dart frogs and mantellas and it was difficult to obtain them from a reputable breeder at any show since there are not many and breeders (of darts) do not attend every show because they can be less prosperous than others, which was not very good for me and my obtaining of these wonderful creatures. This scenario is also played out with chameleon breeders. I have worked and attended many repticon and other shows and there are truly not very many exclusive chameleon breeders and mostly reptile Walmarts with a million WC species of reptiles/amphibians from lets say... Tanzania with odd and end (not going to make it) chameleons beat up and mixed in. To Nic i believe that you just took this matter to personally, the exclusiveness does not effect your ability to sell online does it? which in my opinion is a much greater frontier and prospect for you than 1 repticon show. Many people would love to have this kind of deal available to them and if not you ether: 1. don't vend animals in quantity 2. have never sold an animal 3. Have never attended a reptile show or this particular show coordinator or 4. Are to much of a hobbyist to realize that this is a business matter and not a matter of how one "feels."

the promoters seem to be more then happy with arrangements between themselves and vendor(s) having exclusivity in there shows: Its very poor judgement to guarantee that no one will be able to offer similar animals at these herp fairs . I am curious if that includes price sheets that are left on vendor tables.!!!! Do we take away these lists because they contain chameleons ?

In the end however, its bad publicity, and there is a price to pay that may come back and rear its ugly head because the animal business needs to have competition in order to provide the impetus for bringing people into these shows.. Its really that simple. Apparently these promoters seem to think its to there advantage to keep all of there eggs in one basket, but herp lovers enjoy the opportunity of seeing as much as they can for that admission price.

These shows are a byproduct of people who enjoy this industry for a variety of reasons. It was never meant to be addressed as a club for the few select vendors that offer the same thing that is generally available from other sources...

After reading the explanation that the owner provided, it became clear that he feels its to HIS best interest to limit who can sell what at his shows, and yes they are HIS shows. But its my money. I would rather not participate by showing my displeasure in the way he conducts his business. The only thing you can do is to let others know how they deal at Repticon.