Glendon McDonald Poor Ethics?

"He never actually planned on breeding it."


Oh, really??? Mr. McDonald wrote (posted in order of their appearances):


"I've also spoke with several other people who are interested in purchasing one should I breed it and be able to promote and produce juveniles carrying the same trait and gene that creates the mutation."

"People have continously bred albinos in order to gain clutches with new patterns that have never existed simply to procur more strains and morph patterns to sell.
If what I am doing is to put in a poor context "Playing God"., then so is every other breeder who has bred any animal in order to fascinate "their morbid fascination" at what strain they can then create.
Everyone seems to see this as a bad thing, I see it as the next step in a natural evolution that has come from the natural genetics of the animal."

"I'm sorry if what everyone thinks that this snake is a deformity and should not be bred, but it is opinion. And that is mine."

Sure sounds like he's just looking to price it as a pet and not trying to hype it as a breeder, doesn't it? Yeah right!

I've beat my head against this wall long enough ... you guys do whatever you want. We'll remember who to blame when the eyeless scrubs begin showing up in a few years.

Darin,
Anyone with a post elementary education and an introduction to biology could follow your line of reasoning in the statements you have made.

Mr. McDonald
For example, if a car is found to be defective, a recall is issued and the offending problem is alleviated. However, if the problem is beyond economical repair, the manufacturer is forced to refund monies to the consumer and remove the hazard from the general public, lest the land walking sharks would surely feed on such a misfortune.
Alavro made a most excellent post in stating that mother nature would have most likely eliminated this defect from the gene pool, however, this defective animal, is now within the realm of man. Mother Nature, for all practical purposes, has been removed from the equation.
Mr. McDonald, your futile attempt at comparing Mr. Davenport to the jack booted, nazi government is one of the most beligurent attempts at character assassination I have ever seen. I regret that you and your associate lack the ability to take constructive criticism, but I believe you owe Mr. Davenport an apology. His approach is based in reality and not within a purposed profit margin.
I am sure the animal in question would make an excellent pet, and its life does have a value. But a realist approach demands that one remove it from the gene pool. I can not cause any good only harm. Harm to the genetics and harm to your fine name if it were ever traced back to you as being the seller.
Personally, I applaud your efforts of housing such a misfortunate creature. I commend you on your dedication to the animal. I would also encourage you to maintain that dedication and keep the animal within your domain, why entrust such a different creature to just anyone...especially the highest bidder.
All of the above is just my opinion and doesn't amount to a hill of beans. But you know us hillbillies just don't like it when people make fun of our fellow hillbillies, second cousins twice removed or any other stereotype folks may think up about us.

Best regards,

Carson Grindstaff

Let me rephrase, he originally didn't plan on breeding the snake. If he did breed the snake chances are you may get one or two eyeless snakes, if any. But the fact that it is patternless might make the snake worth breeding. From what I've read up on there aren't that many patternless scrubs. I may be wrong though. As far as the trash talk, the only reason I said something about the hill billy name was because my name was attacked first. Things got a little out of hand with the 3rd grade education statement. I can see the pun intended in that post. For that I can apologize. Glen speaks for himself and you can take his comments up with him if you wish.

This is a post message from glen since his computer isn't letting him post for whatever reason:

To Darin, my apologize for the Nazi remark. that was an extremely harsh remark to make and I apologize for it. I don't think that any jewish people would have been offended by it. after your last post i called the best man in my wedding Mayc Livitz (of obvious jewish descent) and he laughed his ass off. So i don't think anyone was truelly offended by it, if so, again, my sincerest apologies. I don't agree with, personally, and unfortunatle, several people have aproached me regarding the possibility of purchasing one. believe me or not if you wish, i don't really care. not meaning to be cruel because by the same token, i don't think you care about my views either. i just don't really take much stock in your opinion. as i said, all the research i've done has shown that the patternless australian is one of the most highly valued of the scrubs. so by breeding i can indeed make quite a bit of money off of a pattern that does seem to be desired. as far as they eyeless gene, as my friend tool66 has pointed out, the chances of the genetic strand lining up and producing the anomonaly are very small. but should it, i will sale them and hopefully those will have the same sucess in captivity as mine has. when breeding any animal, you must worry for it's well being and handling. regardless of the species. (i.e dogs, cats, horses etc..) but to call these animals "deformed" is what i cannot understand. where is the deformity? in the wild, of course, these animals probably would be wiped out naturally, but as stated, man has interfered. in retort to that though...a great deal many species of animal would never exist and their morphs not be available for us to enjoy (albinos) and these are animals who, in the wild, would probably not survive either. originally, it was merely an idea to breed the animal. never definitive. their is still a great many variables i must consider before it could become anywhere near a reality.
and yes darin, if eyeless scrubs do begin showing up in the next few years, by all means, blame me.
again, your opinion means nothing to me and like my mother always told me i'm going to do what i want regardless of what you say.

Mr. Grindstaff,

as far as the hillbilly remark made by my friend, i thought that was funny due to my point of origin (born in south alabam and raised in south louisiana), perversion of a genetic strand is done every day by anyway who interbreeds any 2 species to create another one. you say the animal is helpless, i say it is not. it has adjusted to it's environment as well as any of the numerous snakes i have seen and does no more harm to itself by striking glass, missing food and trying to find the first escape route by nosing around the lids.
but the only persons opinion i would truelly take into consideration regarding the subject, would be someone who has actually owned, fed, raised, study and resolved to find out as much about this , as everyone has so delicatley put it "deformity", animal.
and again, all day long between things escalating far out of hand, i have yet to hear from anyone else who has.
so point in case, as far as i know, i'm the only person who has spoken today who has hands on experience with one. so i will take what i know, not with what i think or feel, but what i know from owing and dealing with the animal.
but at least you have spoken like a gentleman, and have shown respect, so i do appreciate that, and take your opinion in the highest of regards. thank you.
good day to all.

Tool66 Says:

Let me rephrase, he originally didn't plan on breeding the snake. If he did breed the snake chances are you may get one or two eyeless snakes, if any.

So he breeds this snake to 3 snakes... they all have 6 eggs, so there are 18 offspring.... all with TWO eyes. He sells 14 of those to the public (all HET for no-eyes).... then he breeds the hets he kept together, and gets 20 babies, 5 of them eyeless... the remaining 15 also 66% possible het for eyeless.... sells those... so now somebody has descendants of this snake... they get eyeless, deformed snakes they must cull.

You just DON"T GET IT... that by perpetuating this snake, you perpetuate a deleterious gene, and weaken the population. Is this an Aussie python? With NO new additions to the gene pool, that's like saying: "I'd sure love to corrupt all scrub pythons not left in Australia." Eventually, there will be no scrub pythons for anyone to have.

[sarcasm] Yeah Darin, what would a boa breeder like yourself know about eye deformities cropping up in association with a particular color/pattern related genotype and how they can infect entire populations? Clearly these two are far more experienced with such matters than you will ever be! [/sarcasm]

When I began this thread it was in the nature of a kind of incredulous inquiry... I couldn't believe anyone would be so ignorant and blind to the moral issues that they would *really* be marking up deformed animals or suggesting their use in breeding projects. I figured Mr. McDonald would see the results of the Poll (which are as I predicted they would be when I started the thread... wonder who the one person is that chose the first option. Give you two guesses) and change his stance but apparantly in the face of overwhelming criticism, he feels it's best to continue along a negative path.

My initial thought was either... poor wording or an inexperienced keeper, which I why I questioned the specific situation rather than the man himself... After reading his responses, I'm now confident that he is a true unethical bad guy. I doubt I'm alone in this either.

Congratulations Mr. McDonald, you have convinced at least thirty-odd people that you have poor practices and probably ensured that they will never enter into an animal related transaction with you... And the thread has only been up for a few hours.

Chances are that this deformity is formative rather than genetic but nobody in their right mind would take that risk OR try to utilize it as a hot selling point. It's like selling "New and Improved Tailless Day Geckos!" or "Now avaliable, non-feeding, emaciated mountain kingsnakes, get them while they last, they won't be here long!" (The arthritic dog example was an excellent one as well). The levels to which some people will stoop never ceases to amaze me. Doesn't impress me, but it does amaze me.

Ok, now let me get this straight because I just noticed something.

This IS NOT the only patternless scrub python out there. It is posted by both of these guys that THEY are one of the prettiest and most desirable of the traits presently available in scrub pythons. Is this true? There are other, TWO EYED, individuals which also posess this patternless trait?

If this is true and you are using this DEFORMED, and that is what it is if it is NOT formed correctly, snake as a breeder then you are INDEED a bad guy. Not only a bad guy, but a CHEAP bad guy.

If you want to breed patternless scrubs and there are PERFECT examples of this trait out there and they "WILL MAKE YOU LOTS OF MONEY" then pony up and buy a good one and keep the other one, in his VIRGINAL state, as a pet.

The right way and the wrong way are now staring you right in the face. You KNOW which is which, now you have to decide what YOU want to be known as.

I would appreciate it if you would not include me when criticizing glen's remarks. Never once did I say that I am an "experienced" breeder.
"Clearly these two are far more experienced with such matters than you will ever be! [/sarcasm]"

I have only owned snakes for about 2 years. If everyone is right then there won't be a chance to breed one normal snake in a few years. How do you know there isn't another one out there that has been breed already. You could be breeding a boa w/ an eyeless gene and not even know it. That's the chance you take when you breed snakes. Am I wrong? But I'm not an expert and I'm certainly not breeding snakes. I have enough trouble handling the ones I have!

As mentioned by others, there are other patternless southern scrubs out there (as well as patternless nauta, clastolepis, and others)... Secondly, as far as I can see there's no overwhelming financial side to this argument... The market for scrubs is 95% with diehard fans, and very few of them that I've spoken with are into the whole morph craze...none that I'm aware of would be interested in an animal with this type of abnormality. Even the very-rarely (in the past) imported Halamhera's showing up on ks.com are dropping in price. (because all of us that are dying to buy them at thier current price, just can't afford what they're worth)

Lets face it guys, a 10+ foot highly arboreal python isn't for everyone. People that are huge into ball pythons (and the other morph happy species) generally aren't into things that can perch _anywhere_ and have a strike range longer than you are tall.

To answer Sasheena's question (if noone else has, I only skimmed some of the replies) southerns aren't from mainland AU, and are still regularly imported. WC's generally wholesale for less than $75.

I doubt the gene pool at large is facing much risk in this, but I will say if I worked to raise a normal looking hatchling, paired it with an unrelated animal, and produced hatchlings that popped out with no eyes I'd be devistated. Years of raising the animals, a whole breeding season's pairings, prefectly incubating the eggs...and then ending up with that. A clutch full of deformities. Would you even bother to keep the adult animals involved? How many years would it take to figure out which of the animals was causing the problem? What a horrible waste of time, luck (to get eggs/hatchlings at all), and resources...all for nothing.

I'm not saying there's not a market for scrubs...as previously mentioned I'm selling off most everything else I have just to buy more...so obviously I'm willing to pay for them... Just...what a mess. I can hardly believe this is even a topic of conversation.


Cliff Miller

If he did breed the snake chances are you may get one or two eyeless snakes, if any. But the fact that it is patternless might make the snake worth breeding.

In my opinion that's where the real danger lies, getting just on or two eyeless pythons out of a clutch. That means the rest of the clutch is going to be sold as healthy, flawless individuals when in reality they are more than likely carriers of the genetic defect. Chances are that due to the limited number available, an unsuspecting buyer will bay a pair of siblings, further compounding the problem.