SELLERS BEWARE

If Cagle wants to contact my vet and have the skin mailed to him...he may email and I'll give him his number....

Folks,

 I am actually shocked that Bill posted this and that it is being re-hashed, especially in light of the POSITIVE post that Bill Cagle received from the gemtemen in Alaska who bought a snake from him. It seems Bill never is done with inflicting damage to himself, you need do nothing, he will do it for you.

I think that you can gather what I have been saying about Bill Cagle all along. That he is not someone that I would ever buy from. Ever. Or encourage friends nor anybody I even remotely cared about to buy from. You read these threads, and you make your mind up. I dont have to say much, Bills posts say more than I could ever hope to convey to you about him.


Secondly...I think, because of Jasons for Jus Dums close association with Bill, because of his adamant defense of Bill, even when Bill so obviously demeans people that have posted here, even ones that said POSITIVE things about him....
and in turns ultimately demeans himself and shows you EXACTLY what his character is..I think that because Jason is so closely allied to Bill that we should explore the possiblity of them as "Close Friends"


Jason, you jump to his defense, argue till blue in the face to people that COULD be future customers of yours? and of course, put me down,.
Because of this, from now on, whenever I think of Bill Cagle, I will think of you, as do most of the serious reptile breeders out here allready. You must follow your captain Jason, even as he goes down with the ship.
My only thought about that is this:

Do YOU, JASON from JusDums, have ANY of Bills snakes in YOUR collection?
Now that would be cause for concern.

Just a thought. Something to ponder. I hope not. for the sake of your future sales.


Every time Bill open his mouth up,Jason, he makes your defense of him, as well written as it is, into a mockery.
How can you defend a man who is bent on self annihilation and the destruction of his own reputation(*sic*)?

I noticed something about you Jason, in every post, in every thread, you DONT like to lose. But you did admit you were wrong.  Now it is time to admit that you have hitched your tugboat to a sinking trawler and realize that you are being looked at by those poeple that post here as well.
Not that many people know you Jason, but this isa really crappy way to be introduced.

                                 Sincerely.

                                      Fred Albury




P.S.

Bill Cagle
The cheap virus  you sent me didnt work, thanks
for sending it. Always wanted to know how good my
system really was. Will reply soon

-get crackin on that real soon chris..a mans reputation looms whilst you find the time to help us proceed with this matter.

well to me this sounds real fishy spam_ spam_i read all from the first time and now seeing this spam_ spam_ i think bill is just trying to clear the heat off spam_of himself so he can sell snakes again spam_.IMO
to kim spam_ spam_i dont know ya spam_ spam_but each post i read spam_from you on this 2nd go round spam_ make absolutely spam_no sense spam_you jump here spam_then jump there spam_and jump here again spam_ make up our minds on where your standing at spam_ instead of sitting there always going spam_well this is what i meant spam_..if thats actually what u meant then it should have been written in 1 post on the first try spam_ ..
to bill i could care less good bad spam_ spam_whatever you are spam_you for 1 will not get my business spam_just for the fact that you come here spam_from before spam_and belittle me and the others that use this site spam_IMO spam_ spam_you done end of story end of contract ....
but this is IMO spam_ ...... spam_u gave it to me to read spam_ i READ IT spam_ and this is what i think spam_if you dont liek it sorry spam_but spam_ you set yourself up for spam_the truth to be told spam_. and so far this thread has been more spam_about spam_small talk then actuall issuses spam_except for a few threads spam_points were made spam_in those spam_and i commend for them staying on the right track .......IMO!!!!!!!

Chris,

 I would retrieve that snake that you gave away because you didnt want it to be put down, euthanize it, and DOCUMENT everything, send copies of it to Bill as well as the necropsy report which everyone and their mama has allready read, get a copy of that ans end it to him also.

Then go public with the results of the snake you euthanized.



                          Fred

shawn

im not standing anywhere im just asking questions.
if chris has a way to prove that the snake came from cagle without doubt then that solves that problem.
sorry if my posts are hard to follow or my position difficult to process ill try harder to make myself more clear.
thanks for the heads up

It seems to me, that if the TRUE question of this whole mess is whether or not Chris Heinrich is being honest about the snake, it should have been brought up months ago. There is no question that Bill bought snakes from Dale, Bill sold the snakes to Chris, Chris took A snake to the vet and it had IBD, Chris said he got the snake from Bill, Bill said he got the snake from Dale and knew it was not well and others have gotten some sick snakes from Dale as well. This was all brought to light AFTER Chris posted about the sick snake. Initially Bill did not doubt for one second that the sick snake was one Chris got from him (he said he knew it was). Now, several months have passed and it might be very hard for Chris to produce any kind of proof...ie pictures. etc. I think the issue is Bill Cagle had (has) IBD at his facility and continues to sell boas. Casey Hulse

ok i said i was done ... sue me ..
i just typed all of the this to jason and copied it to post incase i decided to , well after reading the last few posts i decided to post it. anyone can make of it what they feel they need to spam_but for what i see it was and still is the original stand i took in this whole ordeal.

Hey Jason ,
ok you have asked me how i feel spam_so i will give you my feelings on this matter.
A - The people envolved in this are to me not the issue i would have the same feelings about this deal if it was anyone else I am not "jumping on Bill for the fact that he is Bill cagle"
spam_ What i spam_was doing was bringing to light the point that Bill for sure via his own statements acknowleged the fact that he and his place did have IBD come into contact with it . Iam aware of the fact that its not airborne and that the actuall transmission of the virus is limited to vey few ways.However in saying this i am no less condemming the fact that Dale Picola was the originator of it .The differences i see in this is that although who really knows spam_what Dale is doing in his hometown by selling snakes etc after stating he would not sell for a while the fact remains as i have seen he has not been online in this or KS selling snakes.
spam_I can also say that the steps Chris whoever took were not ideal in doing this process spam_the way it should of been handled , one he should have given pics of spam_the snake/snakes he claimed that had or died from IBD to be verified VIA spam_the pics that Bill posts spam_which could be identified by markings 99.9% positive.He also should have taking the steps to assure that his vet made available to him the same snake that died spam_was verified in the necropsy by simple pictures of it as it was performed , thus would have given proof that the same snake he was sold was the one on the table .I am not fully aware of the procedures of necropsies as to what is done spam_with the body of the necropsied snake after all is said & done so i wont speculate on how thats handled.I can see chris's point in wanting to be reimbursed for the costs of these tests ONLY upon providig Bill with the proof wheter it had been the body of the dead snake spam_, pictures of the dead snake spam_along with the report shown in the BOI. Now as to making the statement of whos vet is or isnt qualified to do this .. . well thats like comparing apples to oranges as its would be a hard thing to say i would trust someone else vet over mine because of the simple fact the validity of the vet is questioned at all to me makes it only fair to say why is one persons vet i have no background about anybetter then mine ( see my point there) its kinda like saying " i dont trust your auto mechanic working on my porsche " but whay would you trust mine working on yours?thats a 50 / 50 arguement.
spam_ spam_ Now to your question of is it fair to say bill should stop selling snakes ? well IMO yes it is spam_and here are a few reasons why i say this .One being he openly knew he had been confronted with IBD wheter or not it came from him isnt the point its the point that it was with him at this time. , and the way i saw it he was passing all the blame back to Dale for this , which in a way yes it was Dales fault thatBill was burdened with that . But none the less we ALL have to be responsible for what is in our possesion spam_The fact that Bill could have simply stated in his ads that he had received snakes spam_from Dale picola and it was proven beyond dobt that they were IBD positive spam_and as a service he was wanting to aloow any potential buyers know up front of the situation at hand.Why you say is that a route .. well that could have IMO saved him alot of the greif he has received in all this mess ,Now to the point of Quarantine procedures... i understand its not totally 100% feasable to say that someone that may deal with 20-50-100 or more snakes amonth can keep them all seperate but what i do think is that no one other then Bill and maybe you know what snakes were in the quarantine at the time the snakes from dale came in .Now mites are not always seen at first , i have had snakes come to me with them and not seen them at first , but when i did take note of them spam_i acted promptly to rectify the problem spam_, i am not saying Bill didnt take these steps cause i am not one to say w/o first hand seeing it on my own .But what i can say if i had received a snake or snakes in here that proved to be IBD positive and i had other snakes around them , and there were signs of mites spam_that alone would bother me for the fact if you didnt see mites at first spam_how can you say where they have gone and what they are hosting on next? so this would cause me to take what ever snakes that might be spam_anywhere withing walking distance of mites out of the forsale rotation and do a very intense fumigation of everything around or in the quaraintine spam_room . But from what was obvious Bill it appeared spam_to be more worried about loosing a few weeks sales by doing this over taking the steps to back off a while untill a timeframe could be met to assure no mites had anychanse of being present.As you and i both know Bill does charge a high price for his snakes which is cool cause he does have nice ones i will not take that away from him . BUT with the $ he charges i would only have to think that he has a substanial profit formed from this .I have spoke to my vet about what ways IBD could possibly be detected spam_short of a necropsy and he said that there was a test spam_that could be done on the Liver of a suspected animal that could give results if spam_a possiblr IBD virus was present, now spam_i have never been spam_unlucky enough to have to worry about it myself spam_but i also have spam_no reason to doubt his words as he is a HIGHLY respected xotics vet in this area spam_his name is spam_Dan Johnson @ Avian Xotics hospital here in Raleigh NC . And to end this up the one thing that really spam_rubbed me wrong was Bills arrogance in the spam_fact that he was comming across as IBD was not his fault after the #### hit the fan and that Dale was to be held responsible , as to say ok i sold the IBD snakes ... but Dale sold them spam_to me first . then to have the attitude he did towards all of us here and i must say when he stated that we were idiots & fools and the BOI was worthless means of info and no one took it serious .. well that was just another sword in the back of a bull . But for him to say that then as of last night he posted several threads as to "good guys : posts spam_and the Bad guy post on chris , it makes me think his apologies are not what he claims them to be when he tosses them out . spam_ok now you asked if i would stop selling snakes if i was n the postion of haveing a claim made to me ? im not sure now if i touched on this or not yet but here goes that answer ..
wether or not the claim made could be verified , if i myself knew i had snakes with IBD spam_YES spam_i would hold off on sales till something could be done to satisfy my mind that nothing i have was affected by it other then the snakes i knew of that came from a source wheter it was mine or a 2nd party , thats just my thought.But like anybuisness no matter what spam_this one to me is more like the playing the slots in vegas .. yeah you micght can make a living doing it spam_but at the same time it only takes one or two bad pulls of the arm to loose it all so IMO its better to back away from the table and collect everything then to keep on gambling and loose it all .
. well thats about all i have or can say about this situation at this time , and again it wasnt a personal attack on Bill or you , as i said i would have felt this way no matter who it may have happened to

Now after having typed this a few others had responded to this post.here what i have to say off of them.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chris Red-- i know you say thats you are not in a hurry , but if you can get the skin well thats 90% proof compiled with the report you posted in my book thats 100% proof , also if you can get that snake you gave away back DO IT ASAP spam_although i see ya point in not wanting it put down if it does have IBD also it will only validate all you have spam_posted more IMO</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Shawn /the viper house spam_i agree that it does appear that he is trying to disperse the heat he caused to himself</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Casey Hulse- what are you doing in my mind ! lol spam_icould have written your words verbatium.. i agree 110% with your posts</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

ok well i guess theres nothing much more to do now but wait this out ....

I ASKED FOR THE DEAD SNAKE FROM DAY ONE AND I HAVE ALSO ASKED FOR A HARD COPY OF THE VET REPORT FROM DAY ONE. WHY WOULD I NOT ASK FOR A DEAD ANIMAL IF I WERE GOING TO SEND OUT REPLACEMENT ANIMALS? THAT IS THE FIRST THING ANY REPUTABLE BREEDER ASKS FOR. THIS IS MY HOBBY AND BY NO MEANS DO I ATTEMPT TO MAKE MY LIVING SELLING SNAKES. I BUILD AND REMODEL HOUSES FOR A LIVING. SNAKES ARE MY PASSION AND I HAVE BEEN KEEPING AND BREEDING THEM FOR OVER 22 YEARS NOW. THE ANIMALS I GOT FROM DALE WERE NEVER EVEN IN THE SAME BUILDING WITH MY BREEDERS OR ANIMALS FOR SALE. THESE PEOPLE THAT CONTINUE TO TRY AND DISCREDIT ME ARE OBVIOUSLY JEALOUS OR JUST HATE BILL CAGLE. I HATE NO ONE, NO NOT EVEN YOU FRED. I JUST HATE TO SEE IGNORANCE POSTED AGAIN AND AGAIN. IF YOU GUYS DO NOT LIKE ME THEN PLEASE DO NOT BUY FROM ME. I AM NOT GOING TO MISS YOUR BUSINESS. I DO NOT NEED TO SELL BOAS, BUT I WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO BECAUSE THIS IS MY HOBBY AND PASSION. I LOVE BOAS AND I HAVE LOTS OF FRIENDS THAT SHARE MY PASSION. IF I THOUGHT FOR A MINUTE THAT THIS BOI WAS GOING TO HURT ME IN ANY WAY I WOULD HAVE NEVER POSTED IN THE FIRST PLACE. TO YOU THAT THINK I AM AN A$$ HOLE. TOO BAD! YOU ARE VERY CONFUSED. I AM PROUD OF WHAT I AM DOING AND WHAT I HAVE ACOMPLISHED WITH MY REPTILES. ONE LAST THING I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IS WHY A MAN WOULD WANT TO KEEP TWO OF MY BOAS IF HE IS SO WORRIED ABOUT MY COLLECTION BEING SICK?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>???

Bill, Why were the boas you got from Dale not housed with the other boas you had for sale? I can understand why you did not house them with your breeders, but why not house them with the wild caught snakes that you sell? That does not make any sense. Please explain