I'm pretty tired of the actions this individual is taking. I personally do not think that we should support individuals who act as JY does in his importation practices. People like him put the entire international trade of CITES species in jeopardy and he needs to be stopped. Below is a portion of an AOL Instant Message conversation I had with JY on 4/18/04 regarding his importation of Calumma parsonii and other rare chameleon species. I personally think that ANYONE who does business with this individual knowing about his blatant illegal actions as is admitted by him in this conversation is no better than him.
The Following AIM conversation occured on 4/18/04 between myself (screen name "Furcifer minor") and JY (screen name "Bluefoggy"). I have removed off topic sections of the conversation but have the full conversation on file.
"Bluefoggy (11:33:58 PM): i should get my shipment in 6 weeks now
Furcifer minor (11:34:19 PM): ic, what exactly are you getting?
Bluefoggy (11:34:26 PM): 50 personii
Furcifer minor (11:34:42 PM): which morphs?
Bluefoggy (11:34:55 PM): all kinds of colors
Bluefoggy (11:35:28 PM): they are more color morphs out there besides the yellow and white lips
Furcifer minor (11:35:45 PM): yeah, there are like 3 or 4 others
Bluefoggy (11:35:52 PM): i will have them all
Furcifer minor (11:36:10 PM): can you describe them?
Furcifer minor (11:36:23 PM): the others aren't really named so its hard to say which they are
Bluefoggy (11:36:24 PM): pure blue with yellow eyes, blue and yellow with green eyes
Furcifer minor (11:36:45 PM): thats white lip and yellow lip
Bluefoggy (11:36:47 PM): i have pix of some animals here
Furcifer minor (11:37:11 PM): can i see them?
Bluefoggy (11:37:41 PM): sure
Furcifer minor (11:37:47 PM):
cva3@cornell.edu
Furcifer minor (11:41:47 PM): that first one is a female. you can't really differentiate between females as to morphs
Furcifer minor (11:42:16 PM): second one looks like it too
Furcifer minor (11:42:50 PM): third appear to be white lip
Bluefoggy (11:43:31 PM): those are the only pix i got for now
Furcifer minor (11:43:50 PM): are these coming from your contacts you told me about in Japan or elsewhere?
Bluefoggy (11:44:22 PM): will have more pix of different animals for my partner next week
Furcifer minor (11:44:31 PM): k cool
Bluefoggy (11:45:12 PM): he got giant yellow X white lips too
Furcifer minor (11:45:33 PM): hybrid?
Bluefoggy (11:45:36 PM): but i dont like crosses
Bluefoggy (11:45:38 PM): yup
Furcifer minor (11:45:40 PM): yeah i agree
Furcifer minor (11:45:55 PM): i'd never heard of parsonii actually being hybridized like that
Bluefoggy (11:46:03 PM): there are only 3 pure giant yellows in Japan now
Furcifer minor (11:46:10 PM): ic
Furcifer minor (11:46:30 PM): do you have any pics of the crosses?
Bluefoggy (11:46:41 PM): nope not now
Furcifer minor (11:46:44 PM): k
Bluefoggy (11:46:54 PM): but i can ask him if you wanna see it
Furcifer minor (11:47:08 PM): i'd be interested to see what they looked like
Bluefoggy (11:47:15 PM): k
Furcifer minor (11:47:27 PM): i'd never heard of it being done. i know peopl ehad tried white x yellow lip without success
Bluefoggy (11:47:39 PM): i know
Furcifer minor (11:47:44 PM): it had been believed with parsonii you couldn't cross morphs
Bluefoggy (11:48:27 PM): but the giant yellows can be cross
Furcifer minor (11:49:11 PM): but, my theory is, if you look at their range, white lips are north of Perinet (where parsonii cristifer live) and then yellow lips are south of perinet. they don't intersect so i had wondered if they were speciating away from eachother. I don't know where the giant yellows are from but if they were from north of perinet, perhaps they haven't speciated as far away from teh white lips?
Furcifer minor (11:49:45 PM): therefore still being able to breed
Furcifer minor (11:49:52 PM): just a thought
Bluefoggy (11:50:03 PM): he also have CB baby minor for sale
Furcifer minor (11:50:21 PM): and how much would those be?
Bluefoggy (11:50:35 PM): but very hard to get re-exportation paperwork
Furcifer minor (11:50:43 PM): k
Furcifer minor (11:52:09 PM): are you going to pick the animals out and bring them back or is your partner picking them out and sending them to you?
Bluefoggy (11:53:07 PM): he is picking the animals for me
Bluefoggy (11:53:28 PM): but i told him that i dont want any all green ones
Furcifer minor (11:53:47 PM): Why? those are females...
Furcifer minor (11:54:12 PM): seems a little counter productive...
Bluefoggy (11:54:20 PM): cuz i wont be able to tell if they are female yellow or white lips
Furcifer minor (11:54:51 PM): so you're just getting a bunch of males then?
Furcifer minor (11:54:53 PM): 50 males?
Bluefoggy (11:55:47 PM): some females have blue coloration too
Furcifer minor (11:56:19 PM): so you're going to be getting at best 40.10
Furcifer minor (11:56:26 PM): i'd say more like 45.5
Bluefoggy (11:56:32 PM): lol
Furcifer minor (11:56:58 PM): not all that many females are so blue that they would look differently than the normal green females
Bluefoggy (11:57:28 PM): maybe i will ask him to send all yellow lips in one cargo and white lips in another
Furcifer minor (11:57:52 PM): and all these have CITES?
Bluefoggy (11:58:00 PM): yup
Furcifer minor (11:58:12 PM): are they coming through the Czech Republic?
Bluefoggy (11:58:21 PM): nope
Furcifer minor (11:58:45 PM): cause japanese CITES for them aren't accepted
Furcifer minor (11:58:56 PM): FWS confiscates them
Furcifer minor (11:59:18 PM): thats why most are sent through the Czech Republic or other countries that are more leniant
Bluefoggy (11:59:43 PM): from UK to Japan to here
Furcifer minor (12:00:17 AM): so do they have japanese CITES or UK CITES?
Furcifer minor (12:00:40 AM): and why are they going through Japan. that seems like a major extra stress on them
Bluefoggy (12:00:50 AM): UK CITES with Japanese re-export permit
Furcifer minor (12:00:55 AM): ic
Furcifer minor (12:01:10 AM): i'd think it'd be less stressful for them to just come from the UK
Furcifer minor (12:01:17 AM): its less distance than from Japan
Furcifer minor (12:01:20 AM): and fewer stops
Bluefoggy (12:01:43 AM): because i want the bloodlines that japanese are working with
Furcifer minor (12:01:48 AM): are these just animals in japan that they are using old permits from the UK to get reexport permits?
Bluefoggy (12:01:57 AM): yup
Furcifer minor (12:02:00 AM): ahh ic
Furcifer minor (12:02:26 AM): whats so special about the japanese bloodlines?
Bluefoggy (12:02:34 AM): i dont want the same bloodlines that NERD have
Furcifer minor (12:02:43 AM): ic, that makes sense"
As the conversation points out, he is simply applying existing documents to other animals to make them legal. He went on to say:
"Furcifer minor (12:18:54 AM): well, do you know prices yet?
Bluefoggy (12:19:11 AM): not yet
Bluefoggy (12:20:00 AM): go to see if any animals die during the shipping and the tax on those animals
Bluefoggy (12:20:04 AM): got
Furcifer minor (12:20:11 AM): ic
Furcifer minor (12:20:17 AM): and ball park idea?
Furcifer minor (12:20:19 AM): any*
Bluefoggy (12:21:09 AM): $1600 to $2000
Furcifer minor (12:21:14 AM): each right?
Bluefoggy (12:21:20 AM): yup
Furcifer minor (12:21:33 AM): are you just getting parsonii or are you getting globifer or any others?
Bluefoggy (12:22:40 AM): only have paperwork for parsonii now but working on paperworks for Globifers and minors too
Furcifer minor (12:22:54 AM): any ball park idea on prices for them?
Furcifer minor (12:23:01 AM): would those be in the same shipment?
Bluefoggy (12:23:03 AM): nope
Furcifer minor (12:23:16 AM): k
Bluefoggy (12:24:15 AM): what is the smallest size Globifer's that you have encounter?
Furcifer minor (12:24:49 AM): umm, 4 inches total length i guess
Furcifer minor (12:24:54 AM): why?
Furcifer minor (12:25:04 AM): that was wild though
Furcifer minor (12:25:14 AM): in madagascar that is
Bluefoggy (12:25:17 AM): i have some CB Glo at 1 month old.total size around 2-2.5 inches
Furcifer minor (12:25:46 AM): hmm, interesting
Bluefoggy (12:26:29 AM): but there are still in Japan now
Furcifer minor (12:26:38 AM): yeah
Bluefoggy (12:26:43 AM): waiting for paperwork
Furcifer minor (12:27:07 AM): are you having the same problem with them as the minor for papers?
Bluefoggy (12:27:29 AM): yup
Furcifer minor (12:27:43 AM): with the minor, is it just that there aren't documents for them from the UK to reexport under?
Bluefoggy (12:27:44 AM): cuz they wanna know where the adults came from
Furcifer minor (12:29:01 AM): and they aren't asking that question with the parsonii cause you are using the CITES from the UK and just saying they are those animals?
Furcifer minor (12:29:54 AM): i'm suprised there would be many imports to Japan from the UK to use
Furcifer minor (12:30:21 AM): it doesn't seem like a source they would use
Furcifer minor (12:30:31 AM): i'd think indo or direct would be more common
Bluefoggy (12:30:32 AM): does CITES paperwork mean anything to you?
Furcifer minor (12:30:49 AM): what do you mean?
Furcifer minor (12:31:10 AM): am i familiar with them or would i want them for my animals?
Bluefoggy (12:31:46 AM): are you familiar with the CITES paper?
Furcifer minor (12:31:51 AM): yeah
Furcifer minor (12:32:11 AM): i've dealt with them before
Bluefoggy (12:32:30 AM): you know you can use the same piece of paper for different animals right?
Furcifer minor (12:33:13 AM): well, i'm aware that people just apply it to different animals but its not exactly a legal practice as far as i know
Furcifer minor (12:33:23 AM): correct?
Bluefoggy (12:33:29 AM): there isnt any DNA samples of which animal that the CITES is issued to
Furcifer minor (12:34:08 AM): yeah so people just transfer it to another animal like if the one with the cites dies, its easy enough for them to just say the papers were for this other animal
Bluefoggy (12:34:40 AM): what i meant is that you can have 1 CITES paper for only one animal but be able to keep 5 others without getting in trouble
Furcifer minor (12:35:22 AM): unless you are investigated and asked for documentation i guess
Furcifer minor (12:35:34 AM): brb
Bluefoggy (12:36:46 AM): no DNA sample therefore its your words against their
Bluefoggy signed off at 12:37:25 AM. "
Interestingly enough, this conversation was before he started posting adds for the globifer. In his adds, he stated he had eggs that were about to hatch yet in this conversation, he said he had 1 month old babies. As I said before, his practices are clear and his morals are obvious. He puts the whole industry at risk. I don't see this as chameleon keepers being mad about people getting these animals that they can't get, I see this is a need for keepers to put their foot down and stop this.
Chris Anderson
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