Movement of thread concerning Dan Quinn- Manhattan Herps

From what I've read, I do think you owe Ryan the 3 JGA. I hope you make good on that promise. A lot of work went into building that site, and payment should be made as agreed upon *assuming they still want them.

As for the damera issue...it's a sore spot with a lot of people. It's in everyone's best interest to make the photos as accurate as possible. As I said before, the coolpix do pick up on the red, ESPECIALLY when the flash goes off. Now that you know this, you can look out for it in the future.

Originally Posted by Manhattan Herps

i would have been MORE than happy to send him 2 jungle giants that hatch this year, hell i would have even sent him 3, including the first, but then all this BS started up again. befor the gecko was sent back i had thought we made peace, i had apologized for my actions to him in email...obviously this BS was still stirring up.

ryan, i am sorry this is what it all came to, if you'd like, i'd be more than happy to give you 2-3 of this years Jungle giants, you've got my word, shoot me an email and we will work somthing good out this time..i owe it to you

again, i appologize for the incredibly stupid things that where said in email, it was spur of the moment thing, i do not want to argue anymore, this is tireing, and if this keeps on it will never end

It looks like tempers flared in the heat of the moment here. It sounds like, as long as everyone makes good on their word, this one has been resolved favorably.

Ryan, all you have to do is turn the site over to Dan once he makes good on delivery of the anilmals.

Originally Posted by Suncoast Herpetological

Ryan, all you have to do is turn the site over to Dan once he makes good on delivery of the anilmals.

Please note the bold text in the quote above.

It sounds like you bent over backwards for Dan and his mother, and were thanked with a ration of crap. Get what you are OWED before you do anything further, Ryan....Business 101.

All I can add is that I have known Ryan and Val for a few years now (did my website as well) and have heard about this situation from the beginning to the end. I am pretty sure I saw that particualr Leo one evening when I was there as well( I go over and visit them and drool over their collection) and it did not look anything like Dan's pictures. It was a very nice Leo, but no neon orange. For Dan to say then that that is what it looks like bothers me. I have seen other pics on some breeders sites or on here and I wonder if the pictures have been messed with. I don't know the tell tale signs...others do...
Lucky for me, my gang is pretty normal color so i dont have to worry about taking pictures of Neon orange colors.
But if I had the high end Leos I would make sure my pictures represented the Leos, even if I had to sit there and hold it up to the monitor. And if it didn't match up I'd figure out how to make it.
SO my input is- I knew about this transaction and from what I heard, it went as Ryan stated, and that Leo looks like what Ryan pictured, not the bright tangerine of Dan's picture.
Personnaly, i think Ryan is owed the Leos as well and the excuse that was given to him that well, this or that one is a holdback was bull....websites are hard work, I know becuse he does mine. He did alot of work on Dans site. He deserves something...
And Dan, your Leos are amazing already. The colors don't need to be altered to show that. I just would hate for this to develop into the red Leo thread I remember paging through....Now that was grossly altered, not just the contrast played with but still...A Leo is what it is, and from what I remember it is not what Dan showed but rather what Ryan showed...

Seems to me that an agreement was made; web site design in exchange for 3 Albino Giants. Website was done, geckos were not received. Everything else is excuses and hurt feelings. Bottom line, Dan get Ryan his geckos, if you didn't produce what was agreed upon, work out an arrangement to send him some of your holdbacks, or if that can't be agreed upon, get the 3 Giant Albinos from another breeder and send them to Ryan. Bottom line, you didn't hold up to your end of the deal. That puts you squarely on the road to "bad guy" status.... make things right.

Well Dan, I appreciated the apology for the threats, it made things go smoother at the end. Here are some thoughts I have. I understand that you can't control what animals you produce, but I think it's weird that you're willing to pay me now after the issue has been addressed here. I wish it wouldn't have needed to come to this to receive my payment, since it's your obligation to me. To quote you, you said you’ll “give us a trio of your best offspring.” You had 3, sold one, and gave one to us. The remaining animal is your “holdback” Cailin. You knew we wanted her, but you had no intentions of giving her to us. At least in my mind, if things don’t work out as planned you do you best to fulfill your obligations. Cailin would have been the animal to do it with, and you knew we liked her.

As for the deformed clutch mate, I’m not saying that was your fault. You really got under my skin when you told me “if it lives you are welcome to take it but i would not breed it..and would have to handfeed it.” You know my intention was to breed these animals. I’m sorry that it happened and I know no one has any control over it, but the fact that you offered her to us really upset me.

Also, I’m a little upset with the slandering you made out of frustration. I’ve heard around that you emailed some of my clients complaining. I’d really like you to fess up to that because that also really upsets me. I have no clue what was said, but put yourself in their shoes, and then mine. Not very cool at all.

This is what I’d really appreciate happening.

I think my biggest issue, is that jungle giants are my favorite morph. Everything kind of fell through for us on this project. I appreciate your offer to give me some 06 babies, but it doesn’t change the fact that we are now a year behind. Not that this has anything to do with money, you know it doesn’t, it’s just a huge let down for us as we were so excited. Since you can't predict when and what you'll be hatching, I'd really like to receive money as payment instead. I would prefer not to count on eggs that aren't hatched (possibly even laid), as that is what got us in this problem in the first place. I believe the safest thing to do is to use a rough market value of the morph and multiply it by three. I think a respectable value of these animals is around $325 for a medium/average jungle giant. I would really appreciate this as closure so that we can move on with everything.

My only other thing I’d like to know about is what was said to my clients behind my back. It’s been eating away at me ever since I heard about it. This is something you can tell me via email if you’d like.

I’d like to act like nothing happened before and continue to help you, but after the outcome of this, I would just appreciate my request above as a closing and we can both move on with everything. Once payment is received, I’ll give you all of the files to your site. Your domain name is registered for 1 year and expires March 21st. I’ll gladly help you out renewing it, and transferring the domain to a new host if that’s what you’d like to do, but that’s as far as my help will go.

Oh, and don’t worry about your photos. It’s the least of my worries and something I’m just going to have to see past from here on out.

Looking forward to your reply.

Ryan...neighbor..you got a friend in Pennsylvania brother. If you don't want anything to do with Dan's animals as payment, and would prefer he pay you in cash for the work that you've performed, but you dont know where to begin, just shoot me an email or PM and I'll put you in touch with my wife at her law office. She'll help you out free of charge with no strings attached. We don't need a website designed and I don't need the one we have updated or changed in anyway. Its basic and ugly and works...just the way I like it. Anyway...you sound like a real nice guy and it would be a pleasure to help you out if we can. The offer is there if you need it. At minimum...my wife would be delighted to draw you up a solid contract that you can use in your business dealings.

And.... hey there Dan.....cant forget you.....what a real nice example of Christianity you've shown. Be very grateful if Ryan doesn't take me up on my offer. Just think about his hourly rate and ability to prove he's performed the work. Yikes. Do try to get this squared away to HIS satisfaction while you still can.

Ryan built and maintains my website. First of all, he did a fantastic job and I am extremely happy with the way it looks, and especially with the professionalism and courtesy Ryan shows me as a client. As in the situation with Dan, he was willing to work for me in exchange for geckos which of course is only helping the gecko breeders since he could just as easily adopt a cash only policy, and after this situation, I wouldn't blame him a bit. I had a few quotes on a website before I met Ryan and the fees for building and maintaining a site for a year ranged from $800 to over $1000. The one gecko Ryan received form Dan as payment does not come close to covering that amount. I am not saying she isn't a nice gecko, just that website design is expensive and I believe Ryan deserves to be compensated for the work he does. Anyway, I've known Ryan for a year now and he has always gone above and beyond for me. If anything, he is too nice, and I have no problem coming here and defending him because of the outstanding person I know him to be. In my book, Ryan Roth is not only a good guy, but one of the best.

Originally Posted by Manhattan Herps

, its cluchmate came out with an overbite, and was premature, i informed ryan of this, showed him pictures and all that..not my fault that it had come out deformed, and thats how he was acting, i told him he was welcome to any babies from my jungle het albino x jungle giant, but he neer inquired, and her eggs never hatched


its not like i waved a magic wand over the incubator and said " abra cadabra, this egg with hatch deformed!"

You kind of apologized I guess, but then by saying this, still seem a bit incredulous. How do you expect someone to act, when they are offered a deformed baby? Just FYI if you have a business after this is all over. You don't sell (trade for website=same thing)something in advance, and then give the "buyer" what ever pops up. Many of us who sell animals that are in more demand, take deposits on expected offspring. If the animals don't produce, or if my eggs don't hatch, or I get some deformed babies, I don't tell the "buyer" well it wasn't my fault. the buyer gets a refund because I couldn't produce what he paid for. Another option is other animals, of the same value (or a lot of times more value, as good will), that the buyer AGREES to accept.

I don't know the value of many morphs of Leo's, but I know that if I didn't come through on an agreement, and offered the same thing the next season (a year later for most snakes) to offer the same exact thing would have less value. So I don't know how much time has elapsed in terms of Leo season's, but after this amount of time, I would think about increasing the value of your offer, to coincide with what the value of the 3 giants would be now, if he had received them when he should have. Even then IMHO you are getting off cheaply, as some people can make a pretty decent hourly wage, building/maintaining websites.

You kind of apologized I guess, but then by saying this, still seem a bit incredulous. How do you expect someone to act, when they are offered a deformed baby? Just FYI if you have a business after this is all over. You don't sell (trade for website=same thing)something in advance, and then give the "buyer" what ever pops up. Many of us who sell animals that are in more demand, take deposits on expected offspring. If the animals don't produce, or if my eggs don't hatch, or I get some deformed babies, I don't tell the "buyer" well it wasn't my fault. the buyer gets a refund because I couldn't produce what he paid for. Another option is other animals, of the same value (or a lot of times more value, as good will), that the buyer AGREES to accept.

Good points, all. You know, Ryan built my site for me. We made an agreement for x number of dollars. I was to provide him that amount in the form of leos, which worked out great for both of us. Had I had a horrible year productionwise, or for whatever reason not produced what I promised him, I would have sent him either cash, or my own breeder animals/holdbacks. Whatever it took to make things right, and a little more.

I looked at your mom's website Dan. And of course yours as well. Ryan did fantastic work for you and your mom, and for you to offer him at best a $300 leo for all that work is just wrong.

If I were Ryan, I would have kept your leo AND deleted both sites. After all the work he did he was entitled to do just that. I did read some of the instant message logs and chat files, only because you forwarded them to myself and another breeder. I guess you were trying to make Ryan look bad, but it only made you and even moreso your mom look bad. (Sorry Dan's mom, it's the truth).

My advice to you, Dan, is to get Ryan his money pronto. He wants no more geckos from you, and can you blame him? The more I think about this the more irritated I get. I bend over backwards to make sure my customers are happy. I am not perfect and I do make mistakes occasionally but I make sure I make it right and then some.

Hopefully this will be a learning experience for you Dan. I am pretty sure Ryan has learned from it the hard way as well. Hope this all gets resolved soon.