Cautionary thread- Michael John (Frognerd.com)

I agree it's a sticky situation with no easy solutions but too many sellers have this "that's your problem not mine" attitude that I despise in this hobby. Even Petsmart..which seems to be a running joke among most hard core enthusiast here, offers a 14 day guarantee on all their livestock. So your guaranteeing the live animal I paid for will arrive alive? Oh wow thanks..that should be the standard in this industry. Real Guarantees are the ones that go beyond the unboxing. Possibly a prorated system might be of some use to protect both buyer and seller.

Originally Posted by JButera

I agree it's a sticky situation with no easy solutions but too many sellers have this "that's your problem not mine" attitude that I despise in this hobby. Even Petsmart..which seems to be a running joke among most hard core enthusiast here, offers a 14 day guarantee on all their livestock. So your guaranteeing the live animal I paid for will arrive alive? Oh wow thanks..that should be the standard in this industry. Real Guarantees are the ones that go beyond the unboxing. Possibly a prorated system might be of some use to protect both buyer and seller.

At some point, the problem does shift from one person to another.

Petsmart does not profit massively from the animal sales. It profits from the supportive paraphernalia and consumables. The 14-day guarantee is a strategic element and not one forged from generosity. The idea is that it is a relatively small hit that allows them to keep drawing their income from primary streams in the form of supplies. A corporate structure of its extent allows absorption of the small losses all the easier relative to a hobbyist breeder. Completely different model with completely different challenges and strategies.

I think a live arrival guarantee is the standard for most sellers already, so that just agrees with what is already in effect.

A live arrival guarantee is very much a real guarantee. You can offer whatever sort of extra guarantee you want, but that does not obligate another seller to match those thought designs. You have always been free to try to compete with others by using a prorated system of your design. It might even draw customers to you versus another party, so that is a fair offering for you to bear. It may also draw those who manufacture "losses" to take advantage of what you see as generosity. I urge you to try it if you believe in the concept you espouse. Nothing better than skin in the game.

Originally Posted by JButera

Possibly a prorated system might be of some use to protect both buyer and seller.

Can you say more please about your prorating system? How would a prorated system work to protect the seller in cases such as Nickolas' example where there was pest treatment in the buyer's substrate that he/she bought but was not aware of, or my question about a possible attack by the buyer's animal that might have critically weakened an already travel-stressed delicate species?

I offer live arrival guarantee, but if an animal dies within the first week, I would at least partially refund if the husbandry was correct.

What issue I have is that he would have refunded if the animal died a day or two later if he shipped them, but not picked up. I understand that a couple days away is stressful for an animal, but isn't that what happens at all the big shows? NARBC, etc? Those animals are in containers for many days, not housing. The stress of that doesn't kill them. I find it strange that stress would kill a healthy animal that quickly while keeping the other alive.

I can see both sides to this and it's a really tough situation for Dillon and the seller. If it was me, I would refund a partial payment (at least, but would prefer replacing when I had another animal) since I can't say either way if the animal may have had something going on with it. I try my best to make customers happy when I can and I know other breeders who go even further with issues like this. In the end, I don't know if I can fault either person and I do like that they both stayed calm and professional. This isn't a bad guy thread, so I think it's appropriate for others to see what happens in this situation.

Originally Posted by Lucille

Is it possible that the male attacked the female who subsequently died? (Aren't you supposed to quarantine new critters?)

I was wondering if that short contact with the male was what caused the female to start ovulating which was another stress factor? (and why that one died and the other is okay)

what I mean by *the standard* is a live arrival guarantee should be implied, It's not some wonderful gift generously offered by the seller. Most buyers aren't knowingly buying dead animals.

Originally Posted by JButera

what I mean by *the standard* is a live arrival guarantee should be implied, It's not some wonderful gift generously offered by the seller. Most buyers aren't knowingly buying dead animals.

I think it is generally implied. Stating it definitively is more valuable than an implication.

agreed, due to the business practices in this industry it has to be stated. What I'm saying is it's not much though. IMO a 2 week health guarantee would stop tons of sick/dying animals from being sold and shipped plus it protects the buyer from a complete loss and/or some outrageous vet bill.

Hi Lucille what's the confusion in Nickolas's case? (didn't read) If the buyer admitted that the animal died from a pesticide in the substrate that they chose to use then they're responsible.

Originally Posted by JButera

agreed, due to the business practices in this industry it has to be stated. What I'm saying is it's not much though. IMO a 2 week health guarantee would stop tons of sick/dying animals from being sold and shipped plus it protects the buyer from a complete loss and/or some outrageous vet bill.

I think one week is usually pretty good with something stated about proper care. Too many people buy animals before they know what the husbandry is and can kill them pretty easily. If the care is correct, that is a different story. I think I'm going to change my TOS to include that info. I do agree that there should be some guarantee besides an animal arriving alive.