Rian at Underground Reptiles BAD GUY

Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:31:09 -0500
From: <Rian@UndergroundReptiles.com>
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To: <pingoldsby@excite.com>
Subject: RE: Regarding our dispute over the egyptian Uromastyx



Peter,

We are not bullied by you or anyone else and your attempt to slander us is
not only juvinile but ignored by all who have had good experiences with us.

Tell who you wish, post what you want, and do what you like, I offer you a
50% credit toward whatever else you want to purchase from me and that is my
final offer.

I am very sorry that this happened to you I am quite more sorry that the
animal died she was a gorgeous animal with a great disposition and a beloved
pet to young man for a number of years. You are taking this one on the chin
for your stubborness to listen to reason over and over again.

Underground Reptiles

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:11:38 -0500
From: Peter Ingoldsby <pingoldsby@excite.com>
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To: <Rian@UndergroundReptiles.com>
Subject: RE: Regarding our dispute over the egyptian Uromastyx

"We are not bullied by you or anyone else and your attempt to slander us is
not only juvinile but ignored by all who have had good experiences with us."

Dictionary Definition of Slander:

words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another

I have not made an "attempt to slander" you, I have succeeded in sharing with the public the truth about our transaction. If you feel I have made false statements against you, by all means, come to the Fauna Classifieds Board of Inquiry and tell everyone where I have lied.

"Tell who you wish, post what you want, and do what you like, I offer you a
50% credit toward whatever else you want to purchase from me and that is my
final offer."

First of all, why would I have a desire to purchase something from you after everything I have been through? Secondly, I find this offer somewhat ridiculous given the circumstances. If Dell computer (just as an example) sent you a beaten up computer that ended up breaking within a few weeks of owning it they would a) apologize profusely and b) offer to replace the exact item you bought or give a full refund most likely along with some other compensation for the trouble the customer went through by no fault of his own.

"I am very sorry that this happened to you"

It did not just happen to me, it happened to US. It is that kind of mentality, the complete lack of responsibility, that I disagree with the most. A business transaction does not end when you receive a customers money. The customer has to receive the product they were promised as well.

"I am quite more sorry that the animal died she was a gorgeous animal with a great disposition"

I am very glad we can agree on something and I hope that this is a true statement. However, if you really were sorry and concerned about her I would have expected that you at least return my emails about her condition. That you would return my phone calls about her. I would have hoped that when you got on the phone with me after she had died that the first thing out of your mouth was not "your not getting any money back." You never asked me how she was doing, never asked for my or my vets opinion on what happened and never expressed any sympathy over her loss until this message, which I told you I would display publicly.

"You are taking this one on the chin for your stubborness to listen to reason over and over again."

If you think sending an animal back after being told the company you bought it from would not give you compensation for neither the $170 in vet bills they agreed to split with you nor the $70 in shipping I disagree. If you think sending an animal back on a most likely lethal trip through the winter is reasonable I disagree even more. If I was stubborn it was only because my care and love for animals could not let me "cut my losses" by compromising the life of an animal I had dedicated my time, money and heart to save.

Peter Ingoldsby

Rian and or Underground Reptiles

You have got to be kidding me. This is your responce. A 50% CREDIT. Give me a break, thats an obvious attempt to weasle out of any responsibility on this one. Now if you had offered even a 50% cash refund, I may give you the benifit of the doubt. However telling him the only way to get anything is to let you send him more animals, why do you want to deal with him again, or think he would want to deal with you. Well obviously you cant and dont think he would, thus the hollow offer.

I have been trying to look at this from a businessmans point of view. im trying to think what I would honestly do. If I sent someone an animals that I assumed was perfectly healthy, and this happened what I would do. Here is what I think, or would like to think I would have done

In the beggining had I HONESTLY felt the animal was 100% healthy, Im sure I would question the buyer. However your first responce to the injury, the famous (or should I say infamous) "It happened in shipping" is a dead give away in my mind that you KNEW FULLY THAT ANIMAL WAS NOT 100%. However again Im playing devils advocate here, and assuming I am you, and assuming the animal was 100% when it left. Considering the buyer addressed concerns immediately with the animal, and then set a vet date, that you agreed to split with him, I would have worked with them no matter what. Again I believe your reputation is worth FAR MORE THEN A LOUSY 300$.

Next you agree to split vet bills (again a clue you knew the animal was not 100%). As a fellow businessman, and seller of live animals, I know I personally would never offer to pay vet bills on an animal I KNEW WAS 100% the minute it arrived. I would DEMAND THE CUSTOMER SEND IT BACK AT MY COST, but would not pay vet fees. But as a buyer, I can see why Peter would not want to put the animal through that.

From the outside looking in, Underground looks horrible in this situation. Theese kind of deals are what defines you as a person, and a business. Its easy to deal with the customers who praise you, but far more difficult to deal with problems when they arise. Ive dealt with more then my share of problem customers, and it does spook me when people claim an animal I sell is not up to par, however I also know we deal in live animals. Things can happen. Not everyone understand this, and often a customer can assume that hey, its only been two weeks, I didnt kill that animal. Well we all know they could do soo easily in far less time. However again in this situation you were informed of your customers disatisfaction with the animal almost immediately and ignored the situation all together. Then when you did address it, rather then go to the source of the public accusations, you again made yourself look foolish to say the least in you responce, and lack of common scence to go to the site where the accusations were being made... once again classless.

So after all the long ranting, what does my statement above come down to, I still belive no matter what is said that Underground is in the wrong here, and no matter what is said, I will continue to belive this to be true. And they could say they dont care, and thats fine, however I would remind them that first and foremost I purchase MANY MANY MANY THOUSANDS of dollars worth of animals every year. I also tend to stick with one company or person if I find someone I like. Im sure there are many other people on this forum who do the same. Also if you take the time to look aroujd, you may notice this site is visited by many well know herpers, and Im sure many have read this thread.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

If you read my earlier post about my experience, we ended up with two american alligators for $300, in my one experience with these guys, I am simply amazed that you got a generous amount of %50, that is a hell of alot more than what we got. In reality, if you look at the %50 towards another animal, that is basically like giving you an animal for wholesale, because you know the animal you choose will be marked up by around 50-100%, so in actuality, there is no refund coming out of their pockets, you are simply buying an animal for the same amount or more than they paid for it, so it doesn't cost them anything ot do the right thing. I have also noticed that posting on here most times has the opposite effect of what it is intended to do, if you scan through alot of these threads, you will notice that the dealers that are in question, will use your post as an excuse not to pay you back. As far as religion, I do think that it is used to try and make the dealer look good on their websites, it is simply a tactic that is suppose to appeal to your own religious beliefs, that way you won't think to question if they are a good dealer or not. I am not saying that everyone that posts religious text is a crook, I am just saying that every religious dealer fits that description, as it really depends on the dealer, but some dealer do use that to make more money.
Kevin Smith
PS- I think after the vet bills, that this person should be paid back in full for the animal and the shipping.

Had a brainfart,

"I am not saying that everyone that posts religious text is a crook, I am just saying that every religious dealer fits that description, as it really depends on the dealer"

That should say that:

" I am just saying that not every dealer fits that description"

Thanks
Kevin Smith

Peter,

I am so sorry, I think you have conducted yourself well through out all of this. for what it is worth, IMO it is not you..... or anything you did or did not do. This would have been the outcome with anyone and Rian.

One good things these posts do, is really bring to light the true character of some people in this industry and their game. It warns others off from them and people that were in the fog start seeing the real person.

For those that have ANY doubt about Rian or Underground Reptiles, or that religion plays a HUGE, abet negative part with this, here is Rians letter to me. I waited to see how he handled the situation to Peter, but to me this says he is another crook that hids behind religion and there is simply NO dealing with them....

From: <Greg@UndergroundReptiles.com>
To: "Cheri" <cheri@reptilerooms.com>
Subject: RE: Uro you sold and BOI report
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:43:34 -0500

Cheri,

I will break every rule about people who trash other people without knowledge and actually respond to you. The only reason I am doing this is because of some of your comments about my relationship with Jesus Christ and my subsequent behavior.

The Bible says that let no corrupt word proceed from your mouth but what is good for necessary edification. So I try to keep my comments to a minimum if they are not originated from a loving point of view.

You mention that your Dad is a minister I would love to talk to him and see if he can tell me why his daughter would say the things she did about a brother in the Lord without first confronting him personally as prescribed by the Lord in John 18:25. I am not trying to Bible thump you but simply bring to your attention the amazing waste of your time in slandering me and my company before you check with one of the parties involved. I care who I am in Christ not what Cheri thinks of me. I have determined to help this young man out the best way I could but you are making that even harder by your barrage of verbal abuse.

Please be kind and decent and call me on the phone and tell me your point of view and I will tell you mine and you might find out I am even a bigger jerk than you ever imagined OR you might find I am not the Uromastyx Hitler you make me out to be. I am a man with a wife 4 kids and a love for Jesus and the creation He blessed us with.

I am very sorry for the furor this created in your life.

Rian
Underground Reptiles
*****************

I did not bother to respond to him, I know the script too well.

Ok, honestly I have no clue what the religous stuff has to do with this thread. Obviously as Ive pointed out I never went to his site, so I dont know what has been said there, and what sybmolism he uses. However, one thing bothers me yet again.

Cheri did he see what you have written here, and send the emails based on that, or did he email you in responce to emails sent to him. The reason I ask, is if hes reading, then that pisses me off even more.

Post here if you are reading, if not why do you even bother to read the thread.

Situations like this really piss me off. I mean give me a break, this is the same kind of person who will say this web page is full of it, and all the people are idots, yada yada yada. Well without him giving his side of the story here, how am I supposed to get it. If your good enough to read here, thef respond.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

Mickey,

I had emailed him back when this thread first started and asked:
**********
Rian or Greg

Would you or an owner/manager of this business please read this thread and give your input and side of the story?
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...5&pagenumber=1
This is on www.faunaclassifieds.com on the Board of Inquiry

CheriS
*******

At that time I was asking for the other side to be posted here and stated "its always better to hear both sides". Which they elected not to do, but post a response on their site.... it was after that that my feelings were that Rian was what we call a "christian of convenience" here in the south.. they use religion to con people... its much like what oreganus said

I do think that it is used to try and make the dealer look good on their websites, it is simply a tactic that is suppose to appeal to your own religious beliefs, that way you won't think to question if they are a good dealer or not.

SO.... his email to me has to be in response to all I have said through this thread as the above is the only email I sent him or contact I have had with him. He is reading these, no doubt, of course he would....... as Sherlock Holmes said "it's elementary, my dear Watson"

It feeds his psyche and the more people point out that he is in the wrong, the more he feels justified in his thinking how terrible Peter and we are.... and he does fool people with it, thats why he advertizes and tosses it in whenever he can

I agree with everyone that says religion does not belong in this thread, from the true religious viewpoint........ BUT, ITS A VENUE for Rian... you could see that in his repsone on his site and how he is and how the outcome of this was so predicible, its classic.

OK, first things first, I HAVE NOT READ all 12 pages of this thread. I have read the original complaint, the response, and several of the other responses. But I think it boils down to this.

Buyer received an animal that he was not 100% happy with.

Seller offers 100% refund upon return of the animal. $70 cost of shipping is the cost of doing business on the internet. $4 cost of gasoline is the cost of returning animal bought locally. If you can't live with the possiblilty of being out shipping costs DON'T DO BUSINESS ONLINE.

Buyer REFUSES to return animal and then attempts to fix the problem himself. Hey, this computer I bought from Dell doesn't work. They want me to return it, but I think I'll just take to the local computer store instead. Computer dies. What do you mean you won't refund my money?!?!?

I understand people become attached to animals, and the buyer here thought he doing what was best for the lizard. Great! It cost him $600+ and the lizard is still dead. Sounds cold, but it's the truth.

Buyer was given an option, buyer REFUSED! Buyer from that point is 100% responsible. Seller gave the buyer option, and then even went beyond that to try and make the buyer happy. Not a bad guy based on this transaction IMHO. Haven't read all the other stuff yet, may get to it later.

Brian,
So if I have a sick snake.. I send it to whoever to decide they don't want this sick snake and they should lose out on shipping? That would be great for someone hoping to pass off a sick animal relying on an animal lover not wanting the animal to die on the return trip. In a perfect world if noone would possibly send out an already sick/injured/infected animal that would be fine, but some people do that. This is not an issue if the animal was pretty enough or the right temperment, it has to do more with them agreeing to pay half the vet bill and then not doing so. Sending out an animal that was not in perfect health... I agree with alot of what you are saying, but the shipping thing and the fact that they agreed to pay half are what bother me... Not to mention what the customer went through...
As far as religion goes, it is funny that alot of people hide behind religion to try and cover up their wrongdoings. Their are alot of hypocrites in religion and I find it amazing the Catholic Church is still around after being proven to take part in child molestations (covering up and moving preists around). Although I am a non-believer I do think that someone following the word of "The Lord" would probably be a better person than most. It might be relevant to this thread since he so adamently portrays religion in his emails and on his website. I don't think "God" would approve of his behavior, but he obviously does. Also talking about religion is nothing to get all uppity about... Their not really putting down religion, just those who hide behind it. That George Carlin stuff was true comedy genius and added to my favorites immediately!
Merry Christmas,
Tom Baker