Neil Gubitz, Tampa Snake Pit (Good Guy)

And now from reading my past post I agree it is time to call it an evening. I hate typos in the BOI, editing would be nice but I can see why it would not be allowed.

Good night guys. Take care.

Originally posted by TopShelfExotics
I just thought it would be good measure to post the good transaction since all i've read is basically a cluster**uck of garbage piled upon garbage with a few inteligent posts and first hand experiences thrown in here and there. You do have to admit these sort of threads get out of hand and wayyyyyyyy off track sometimes.

No kidding! This thread has gotten way out of hand as well.

People, Chris has the right to deal with whoever he wants to, and then the right to post about it here. I personally would never had choosen to do business with Neil, but that's me. Chris knows the risks of dealing with ANY outsider, esp. ones with bad reps. He CHOOSE to take the risk of getting in sick dragons that could potentially wipe out his collection, and if he sells any with adeno (which doesn't always show signs until later) then he's risking ruining his own reputation. This is a risk he CHOSE to take, his choice, not yours.

Chris admitted in his first post he was expecting flack, and yes, he's getting it. This thread should never have started back into Neil bashing, nor bashing Chris for making a choice, that turned out good. I have a feeling that if the deal had gone bad, Chris would have posted that Neil hasn't changed, that you shouldn't do business with him. At any rate, this thread never should have gotten this long, over one "good guy" post.

This is the letter Neil accidentally sent about a pevious thread on the BOI

::quote:

This is a message from Neil Gubitz at FaunaClassifieds Forums ( http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/index.php ). The FaunaClassifieds Forums owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email Neil Gubitz, you can use this online form:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...form&userid=840

OR, by email:
mailto:ngubitz@webtv.net

This is the message:

Hi Terry.... PLEASE tell me you're not giving these assholes any credibility???.... They wouldn't know your "name" because half of them CAN'T READ THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!!.... Of course, If "Richard Mott" hadn't heard of you, you must not exist, huh??.... Give me a ****ing break! (I bet you wish you could say that on the site, huh?)
Just for the record.... I'm in YOUR corner!....
I'm sure you've read some of the things I've said to some of these mental midgets??.... Like I care??.... This won't hurt your business ONE BIT!!.... Do this for sheer entertainent and don't even worry what's being said.... have FUN with it.... be as sarcastic as you can get, like I do....

Neil Gubitz
Tampa Snake Pit

This is a long post as many of my are; however, this was one heck of a thought about post as I wrote it. Again let me point out that it expresses my thoughts and my opinions on the matter. I am not saying that these are necessarily factual, and open them to debate gladly. I am not trying to demean anyone or anger anyone, just trying to discuss this topic intelligently. As I am trying to reamin respectful, I would ask others to do the same. Thanks.

People, Chris has the right to deal with whoever he wants to, and then the right to post about it here.

So what is the point? Is this trying to say that the others who have posted in this thread did not have the right to reply, as Christopher had his right to make a post? This is a public style forum. Anyone can register (who has not been banned) and then post. If someone does post a thread on faunaclassifieds, then others can and usually will respond to it. That is the whole point of discussion forums. Yet as I see it, Christopher, right from his initial post, makes an attempt to shut up anyone whom would disagree with him, and allow me to quote him:

Truth is gold. So all who wish to argue or disagree can save their breath, no drama is needed.

Ah yes, isn't truth golden. But is it that way only when it is Christopher's brand of truth? If you really believe that "truth is gold" then why try to avoid seeing the whole truth of the matter about the person in question? Your opinion of your deal with Neil may be true, but others are also likely to be expressing the truth even in posts that disagree with your own. The truth has many facets just like a finely cut diamond, and should we look at a diamond only one way we may miss its total beauty. Then again, if we look at a diamond only one way, we may see only a beautiful side of it and miss its terrible flaws - or may see only its flaws and see only the beauty. That is the nice thing about a dynamic discussion - it turns things around so at least most of the sides are seen (one of the reasons I would like to see Neil post at least on this thread if possible is so virtually all of the sides can be seen).

I make an honest contribution to the BOI and it just calls out to those who wish to create drama.

Another interesting thing is that if someone posts a controversial subject, then it will get a lot of controversy, at least in the world wherein I live - and that is not necessarily drama. I believe Christopher acknowledged that this would create controversy himself, yet some seem to think that the controversy is uncalled for - even Christopher himself. In fact, as I see it, he berates us as essentially being dramatists! It is not uncalled for. There are more than one side to this story, and when you write about such a subject, and then admit you knew it would generate controversy, you should at least accept the fact that the controversy is not unwarranted but is due to diametrically opposed opinions that may all have at least some validity. I agree - there is nothing wrong with Christopher posting his good guy post - he has the right. But there is something wrong with him berating others who post and referring to their posts as garbage. Why are their thoughts less valid than his own. Why are his (at least to him) apparently golden and everyone whose disagree with him trash? Some the best posts I have read on these forums disagreed with mine (although I usually go back and forth quite a bit before admitting to that - just ask Clay D. about a recent thread we were involved in).

I do agree that anyone calling Christopher a fool, or being otherwise rude to him, for having bought from Neil is being rather disrespectful. Then again, I have seen repeatedly where Christopher has been, in my opinion, quite disrespectful to others. I guess that gets people riled up and to becoming rude also. I don't know who started it - but the rude thing should stop. I thought his answer to my post was rather flippant myself. He seems to indicate I had nothing of value to contribute if I read it correctly. He seems rather arrogant about making that point, not just to me but to others. I beg to differ - I find most of the posts quite on target and informative. They are, either in favor or against, but still about the original subject 'a good guy post for Neil Gubitz'. As for saying that the thread has derailed, that is not true in my mind. The thread started with a good guy post about Neil, because of a good transaction with Neil. Then others posted bad about him. That is not derailment, that is discussion. The discussion is dynamic and it changes a bit here and there and it also expands and contracts in its scope - but it always comes back to whether Neil is a good guy or a bad guy. That is as on track as any locomotive at full steam can be.

Glenn, I do not think Neil should be allowed back here. He had his chance and blew it. Then he had his chance and blew it.

I do think Neil should be allowed back to post his defense - if only to be allowed access to this one thread in order to defend himself. The reason I think so is because I am convinced it would settle things for Christopher as he seems fairly reasonable even if none too polite. As I said, if Neil is the same old Neil he will hang himself in short order - of that I am absolutely positive. I am not afraid of seeing Neil defend himself to learn that he possibly has changed. I think others may be afraid to accept that he may have changed. For myself, I do not believe he has changed, and I now have my reasons which I am not sure I am at liberty to discuss herein, but that is just my opinion - another fart in the wind so to speak. (Way too many references too farts in my posts here - wonder what that is all about? LOL).

In "MY" opinion, You can make 100 great transactions with 100 Very happy customers and 100 great posts on Fauna, but when you knowingly conduct Dishonest, Selfish, and Ultimately bad business 1 time, you are not a "Good Guy" PERIOD! "Good Guys" do not conduct themselves in the manner that Neil has been proven conduct himself in the past. PERIOD!

As for whether or not Neil or anyone else will remain forever bad because of their past transgressions - I do not agree with that, although I agree that the person who posted it should be allowed to express his opinion. I am not a liberal by a long shot, but I do believe that people can change for the better. If someone does make a radical change and starts to do only good guy things - well then as I see it - he/she has changed into a good guy. I have arrested more people in my career than I would like to recall, and put a lot of them in jail for pretty long times. I don't think to many of them have changed for the better. If I had to guess - I would say maybe 5% at most but that is only a guess. The change usually comes about (in the great majority of cases that do change) right after the first arrest or as a result of the first arrest (this is not a guess but based upon what I seem to remember from one of my Forensic Psychology classes). If the shock of what is happening does not take place then it likely never will. The odds of anyone seeing the light, after they have once been caught and then later offending again, are very small. In the case of Neil, he allegedly had repeated bad deals, got caught, and then reformed only to revert to more bad deals. Using my analogy of an arrested person, in my opinion, Neil does not have the odds in his favor as to becoming a good guy. It is possible nonetheless, after all: the possible does not necessarily always arrive with the probable! This is one of the things that give us unexpected results in life, and that keeps life interesting.

In all of these posts, I have noted something quite curious. Some of the most oft seen responders are not responding to this thread. Where are the Webslave and the moderators on this topic? Is there a reason you guys are not posting? Am I smelling a lawyer here or maybe a team of lawyers? (Yes I have been in law enforcement way too long.) Are you guys mum because of a law suit? If so - it would be nice of you to let others know before someone else winds up involved. Obviously I missed, or have forgotten, some thread about Neil because I did not realize he had been banned - I thought he was only asked to leave of his own volition. By the way: I bring up lawyers and law suits because I have not seen anything else on these forums that has ever kept Ritchie L. from replying (LOL - no disrespect intended but you guys, especially Ritchie L. are usually on everything like white on rice so why be shy here). This has really gotten my curiosity level up high and put me on alert as to be pretty careful as to make sure I am stating everything as my opinion. What goes on here?

Best regards,
Glenn B

Man I gotta wear my glasses when I proof read my own stuff........

Glenn, glasses or no glasses I think you have hit on some great points, one of them being the whole truth matter, everyone has a right to post what they believe to be true. Everyone ( not banned anyway ) has the right to post here, whether others like what they have to say or not, And that includes Chris and Stardust, But that also includes everyone else Chris, Telling people to save their breath's was a bit offensive in my opinion anyway. I also find it a little odd that Chris says he only goes by his own experience and gives everyone a chance, yet refered to a few people he would never give a chance. I would think everyone would be everyone, not the selective few one deems worthy of a chance. Not a big deal, just a little odd. I also wanted to say that just because Neil got himself banned I still think people should be able to warn others of him to prevent them from being done wrong. Not trying to tick anyone off, just posting my opinion's and observations.

I now know not to ever buy anything from TopShelf. Thank you Top shelf for letting me know that you are willing to do business with bad guys. If it wasn't for this BOI and freedom of speech I would never have known that you had no honor. The only real regret I have is that somewhere out there is an "honorable" business man that has gone through much effort to be a good guy that has lost a deal since you chose to give your money to a known crook. But I digress... Thankyou TopShelf for your very informative post. Best regards to you sir.

People, Chris has the right to deal with whoever he wants to, and then the right to post about it here.

When I said this, I was more irritated with people for trying to say who he should or should not do business with. He has the right to make his own mistakes, which I do think dealing with Neil is a mistake, eventually trusting him will come back and bite you in the backside. Some people don't learn from others mistakes, this thread (which I was reading at 6 am) just seemed to be a bunch of people yelling at Chris for dealing with Neil and having the gall to post about it here. A lot of how I was reading stuff could be that it was 6 am, and I was waiting to be sure my son was going back to sleep before I did....

Yet again, the entire point of the thread was missed. I was simply reporting on a recent transaction. This was not meant to facilitate 100 more pages of crap people have read before. It was an update regarding a person I am sure people are interested in hearing about. And wether you like to hear it or not, the transaction was in fact good. If this person is in fact trying to make good on previous wrongs people have the right to hear about it and I was simply reporting it was a step in the right direction. He may have a far far far far far way to go, but that's not up for me to decide. Obviously its up to the angry mob. I was hoping to avoid the drama but obviously that is simply not possible here. I'll continue to update the BOI with our experiences, but obviously I should not be honest and post transactions with customers who have been labeled bad on the BOI. It just gives people a reason to derail a perfectly good thread and allows them a forum to voice their opinions on PAST subjects even tho the transaction is recent. For now on I'll simply shut my mouth or lie. Lesson Learned. Thanks for showing me the light and the truth about the BOI.

I no longer see the point in contributing to this thread in the direction it is heading. But if anyone has something to say regarding events from this transaction on forward I'll be happy to respond.

Take care.

WOW...this thread has gotten out of hand.
Well at least I am assuming form the number of pages it has.

1. Top shelf has the right to buy and post about people they have dealt with.

2. Everyone has the right to warn everyone else.

3. We should not get mad at topshelf for doing business with a certain person. as long as nothing illegal was done and nothing fishy was done and nothing negative was done....so be it.. buy from Neil all you want.

4. The right to post "I told you so" is howeverthe peoples rights if yoou were ever screwed.

5. We should not get mad at everyone else for trying to warn everyone else.



My point. Do not get mad at topshelf for doing legitimate business. do not get mad at top shelf for posting their experience. Everyone else....do not get mad at everyone else for warning everyone else. In other words we all have a right to post and what have you......but I really see no need for all you guys to argue with each other. you are basically all on the same side. Most of you are for giving people a chance....most of you are against bad guys. So why argue with each other?

some of you let your hatred of a person get the best of you