Bad Guys!!! Colorado Reptile Humane Society!!!

I adopted from them when they were CORR and I think their policies changed later. I also have friends who have adopted boxies from them since they became CORHS.

Yes, I have produced box turtles (3 babies) in 2002 from my own (purchased) pair. I also have potential breeding groups of several tortoise and turtle species. I don't breed adopted boxies or rescued red-eared sliders. I think CORHS is concerned with people flooding the market with these throw-away pets and creating more work for rescues already overloaded. If they have decided to deny adoption to anyone breeding any reptile, then that's their choice to make. Rescues are doing their best to find a situation that's best for the reptile, not the humans wanting the reptile. I volunteer for a cat rescue and they have rules that others scoff at, but if the rescue doesn't want their cats declawed, for example, they have a perfect right to reject someone's application.

Originally Posted by Chameleon Company

Sarah, your inside look at this organization is revealing. While they use the words "Humane Society" in their business name, I do not know if they are chartered by or affiliated with the Humane Society. Whether they are or not, it is surprising that anything "Humane Society" would even adopt out reptiles, as the HS's stated position is that reptiles should not be kept as pets, and they have attempted to endorse and pass legislation exactly to that effect in many venues. Given at least that they are placing reptiles, it is very much within the HS's character to not want them propagated. It would not surprise me to see them go to great lengths to try to keep these animals not only from "breeders", but from anyone who is in any way active in the hobby or believes that reptiles should be kept as pets, as contradictory as that may seem since they are placing them as pets. I understand their philosophical dilemma, kind of "we want this reptile to live a happy life since it is already a captive animal, but in giving it to you we hope that you will not want to acquire more, breed it, or support others who want to". Cat and dog adoption agencies usually are able to have all animals spayed and neutered, and I understand the impracticality of attempting such with reptiles. The paradox there being that the HS endorses the responsible keeping of cats and dogs as pets, but not the keeping of reptiles. While I admire the passion and volunteer efforts of many of the people who keep these organizations afloat, and have worked with (not for) several in my professional career, I have to say that I found myself uncomfortable socializing with many of them, as we shared very different values regarding animals and people, often as fundamental as which had more of a right to live.

They are technically a humane society, not sure how that works, but they changed a few years ago. I do not know how involved they are with national humane society... They are not terribly involved with the local HSs, though, most of the Colorado HSs know about them and send reptiles their way.
One thing that confuses the heck out of me, is the director is an active member of PETA! I would think, instead of adopting out reptiles AS PETS, someone in her place would more likely have a shelter that does not adopt out animals but rather keeps them healthy and happy for life. Because how can one who is against having pets, encourage having pets? And have pets herself!

Sarah

Originally Posted by The BoidSmith

Sarah,

After reading about the experience of Clay Davenport’s friend with them that’s what I suspected would happen with my application too. What’s starting to give me a sour taste now is not the processing fee but their policy against breeding. What is it so bad about breeding programs geared towards maintaining a strong genetic pool anyways? Aren’t we doing this to avoid relying heavily on imports? It’s not that most of us are doing this for a living. Wouldn’t it be natural any pet animal to procreate in captivity? It would be actually of more concern to me if they don’t breed under our care (provided we have a healthy pair) as it would suggest they are not kept under the right conditions. As far as the iguanas captive breeding programs I’m not sure how many people are actually breeding them in captivity in the US. Unless it’s something really special (like albino iguanas for example), the bulk of them are imported from breeding farms in Central and northern South America.

Regards.

Well I think you and I are on the same page. I personally hate the thought of all the wild caught animals in the pet trade. I dont even like the fact we still import thousands of ball pythons every year. I have heard the argument that if the reptiles breed in captivity that means they are happy and healthy, therefore well taken care of. CORHS's take on that is everything will breed in captivity whether it is healthy or not. The way I look at it, is the really good breeders WILL keep their animals happy and healthy, in order to get happy and healthy young..... which makes the customers happier, if the custormers get a nice healthy animal, they are usually easier to take care of in the long run....and I have noticed people are more likely to stick with it if the animal stays healthy. So bottom line, if we are making our pets happy... what is the problem?

But yeah, I know there is an overwhelming number of unwanted pet reptiles, but that is I think where education is most important!

Sarah

That seems to be the problem with the Humane Society and other organisations like the SPCA.
"One thing that confuses the heck out of me, is the director is an active member of PETA! I would think, instead of adopting out reptiles AS PETS, someone in her place would more likely have a shelter that does not adopt out animals but rather keeps them healthy and happy for life. Because how can one who is against having pets, encourage having pets? And have pets herself!

They do good things but there stated objective is to do away with the pet trade and well Pets!! you can add hunting and fishing and well anything to do with animals that they view as wrong. They use the money they take in to support the animals they care for but also for other things . PETA is a whole other story I can still remember the big ta do last year over them getting caught dumping dead dogs in a shopping center dumpster. ....Randy

I have adopted form them before. And found them to greatly care for the animals. I was not worried about the fee. The animals I adopted were always in good health when I got them. I also breed reptiles, Maybe because of my past experience with them. I just gave my word that I would not breed. Maybe the ten dollar fee is to see who is serious and who is not. When you post an ad for a reptile. How many emails do you get with low offers and all. I would not hesitate to adopt from them again. In fact I feel so strongly I donate funds to them as I can.

"I'm terribly sorry. We have found many references to you on the internet as
a breeder and as a seller of animals we don't believe should be kept as
pets. It's a risk we can't afford to take. I know Samantha would be very
happy in her big place with lots of rabbits, but nobody could ever guarantee
that any of her future children would also end up in good homes, and I can't
in good conscience adopt her to someone who has a record of breeding.

--Dayna Rich"
None of this is true. I sell my own animals from time to time to keep up what one could call "trade funds" for my hobby, when I want something new that strikes my interest and I also act as a broker for a breeder of crocodilians and tortoises located in Fl, for which I make a dime or two, seldom. I don't breed anything, but might in the future, to include some hots, high end monitors and high end colubrids. My experience runs from cobras to cribos and many, many more , to include big boas and pythons. I didn't want this redtail for a breeder, it wouldn't even be worth my space or time. I can get babies for as low as $35 if I want, with the connections I have. I wanted her for an educational program that I'm planning to take some of my many, varied collection to and needed a big boa to get me finished, as well as some other odds and ends. I'm a 100% disabled Army Vet, crippled and always home and decided I could use my knowledge, collection, love of education in elementary and middle schools and my need for an extra couple bucks to supplement my disability payments and I explained this to them (I AM NOT SEEKING SYMPATHY, these are just the facts of my motive and condition.)
If they have responded to this thread, I don't know. Have they been here to stand up for themselves? They know I put up the initial post. I told them. What do they have to say? I wonder if they were the ones impersonating me on some forum? If its possible, I don't know, perhaps it was someone else with a name similar to mine, however, it was not me.
Here is a reply and albeit hard to read, my application, not counting several emails in the interim:
Hi Roy! I was forwarded your application for adoption of Samantha by the
director of our shelter.

Unfortunately, we do not adopt to breeders. Our animals are meant to be pets
only, as we are a Humane Society, and do not want to increase unwanted
animals in the pet trade that so often end up in shelters like ours.

Thank you for being interested in our animals up for adoption.

--Dayna Rich

>> A1_ADOPTEEFIRSTNAME: roy
>> A2_ADOPTEELASTNAME: young
>> A3_ADOPTEEAGE: 45
>> A4_ADOPTEEADDRESS: 10302 briarbay dr
>> A5_ADOPTEECITY: Jonesboro
>> A6_ADOPTEESTATE: GA
>> A7_ADOPTEEPHONE: 7704730223
>> A8_ADOPTEEEMAIL: royayoung@comcast.net
>> Q01_ANIMALOFINTEREST: name: samantha redtail 10'
>> Q01_ANIMALPERMITNECESSARY: no
>> Q01_ADOPTEELIVESIN: house
>> Q01_ADOPTEELIVESWITH: self/roomates
>> Q02_LANDLORDOBJECTS: na
>> Q03_LENGTHATADDRESS: 20 yrs
>> Q04_MOVING6MONTHS: no
>> Q05_ADOPTEDBEFOREANDSTATUS: yes
>> Q06_GIVEUPWHATTODO: NA
>> Q07_PREVIOUSRELINQUISHMENTCIRCUMSTANCES: Puppies
>> Q08_EXISTINGVET: Colubrids,rea r fanged, boas, pythons, elaphe,
>> lampropeltis, naja, viperidae, crotalidae, varanids, skinkadae,
>> iguanadae, fresh water turtles, doves, parrots, dog, cats, pig, chicken,
>> ducks, galliforms (quail, turkey etc) rabbits, opposum, raccoon, horses,
>> goats. Crocodilidae (many)
>> Q09_EXISTINGVET: Myself, premed student accustomed to medical
>> treatment of aninmals (better than your average vet.
>> Q10_STEPSTOFINDLOSTPET: Not possible
>> Q11_ANTICIPATESPENDINGONCARE: several hundred on F/T rats/rabbits
>> Q12_SUPPLIESNEEDED: large cage, food, clean water
>> Q13_FEEDING: as many rats to keep in good health and body weight
>> Q14_COUNTADULTSKIDSANDAGES: 2
>> Q15_FAMILYFAVORS: yes
>> Q16_MEMBERSRESPONSIBLE: myself
>> Q17_SPECIFCSPECIESWANTEDANDKNOWLEDGE: Pro herper X 30 years
>> Q18_TILLDEATHDOWEPARTRESPONSIBILTY: yes, not planning to die
>> anytime soon
>> Q19_PROVISIONSFORAFTERCAREGIVERGONE: friend herper
>> Q20_RESOURCES: I am a professional herpetologist
>> Q21_1_SIZE: large
>> Q21_2_CONSTRUCTIONMATERIALS: own room
>> Q21_3_SUBSTRATE: carpet
>> Q21_4_HEATINGSYSTEM: space heater when nessesary
>> Q21_5_LIGHTINGSYSTEM: normal UVB
>> Q21_6_HUMIDITYSYSTEM: none
>> Q21_7_VENTILATION: room
>> Q21_8_FURNISHINGS: water
>> Q21_10_SECURITY: door
>> Q22_QUALITIES: name: samantha
>>species: boa constrictor
>>estimated age: ~15 years
>>total length: ~10'
>> Q23_VACATIONTRAVELCARE: 100% disabled vet always home
>> Q24_PERTINENTINFO: pro herper

Thanks,
Roy

Ray,
They said "No". Breeder, not breeder, etc, you are an active hobbyist, which they have open disdain for. Sure, it seems every now and then an active hobbyist gets a turtle, etc. Don't know if its a deliberate decision, a mistake, etc., but you have to expect that with such a subjective organization. Judging by all the hullabaloo over being told "No", do you think its possible that they picked up on something in the initial process that turned them off? I know that I am going to have to be especially wary of adoption agencies that want to pretend to be me in forums so as to undermine my veracity ..... who do they think they are !!!!

I am going to try and clear things up a bit over rescues not wanting to adopt animals out to breeders, this does not put CRHS in the right or wrong. This comes from my experience of speaking with several rescues and even working with them.

Some rescues do not know how big the reptile market is and some do know. There concern is not for the breeding out of pure lines and healthy animals, they simply do not want anymore sick and disgusting reptiles coming to them. They will do all they can to save a reptile and will fork out as much money as possible if they can save an animal's life. Some put so much heart, soul, and life into these and they even cry when an animal is adopted out to great homes.

They know people and heard stories of someone who owned two snakes and did not know the gender of each, turns out they were opposite sex and now they have some 30 babies to take care of. They turn around and sell them to a pet store for $15 a piece. A person buys a baby, the animal grows too large and they one day the rescue finds a 40 pound boa on their front porch.

Another person buys a baby, does not take care of it and they have a sick boa on their hands in dire need of medical attention. They cannot afford to pay $200 for the vet cost, so they drop it off on the rescue's front porch.

Someone else buys two of these cute boas and does not know the gender of each snake, few years later they now have 30 some babies to take care of. So they take the babies back to the store that they purchased the first two at and sells them for $15 a piece.

Do you see the endless cycle that rescues deal with?

They do not abhor breeders, nor do they think that reptile shows are bad because of breeders, When at a show they see responsible people and will even take the time to teach about proper care of these animals. They love this industry as much as we do, but they do not want the animal that they just spent so much hard work, love, and affection to end up being a breeder. After much sickness, what they term to be a very healthy animal may truly be an animal that has stress problems from what they went through and possibly will never survive a pregnancy. When that animal should be housed in a nice safe home and gets fed regularly and get vet visits if necessary or not.

The animal they spent so much money on and love to make sure it is healthy, they do not want someone spending $65 on to adopt, only to turn around and sell the animal off to someone else for $150. Making a profit off of their time and love. Ray, they do not want to adopt an animal out knowing that you will broker animals for businesses or even sell so you can get into the next new "morph".

Certainly once the animal has been adopted out, it is up to the owner to make all decisions for that animal. If the owner wants to sell it, breed it, or use it for soup, that is their own prerogative and the rescue has no control over it. They have adopted it out with assurance and a contract from the new owner that it will be loved and care for with more effort then the rescue put into it.

When the new owner breaks the original signed contract and breeds or sells the animal for more then they paid for it, tell me, who really feels scammed? Who do they think is the "Bad Guy"?

Ray, they know you work with reptiles for profit, you admitted it here for all the world to see, it is their right to refuse to adopt an animal out to you. They have that right, they do not hate you or see you as a bad person, they simply do not want all their hard work, love, time, and money to end up being used for breeding or profit by someone else. These are their animals, get over it and move on to someone else with an animal for sale.

[quote=Junkyard]They do not abhor breeders, nor do they think that reptile shows are bad because of breeders, When at a show they see responsible people and will even take the time to teach about proper care of these animals. They love this industry as much as we do, but they do not want the animal that they just spent so much hard work, love, and affection to end up being a breeder. QUOTE]

Oh yes they do abhor breeders! And no they do not see responsible breeders at shows. Did you know, this group was banned from most if not all of the Colorado shows because of their negativity?

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%. I am in the veterinary field and see TOO MANY unwanted pets for the EXACT reasons you described!

Sarah

I do not know CRHS, nor do I know of their dealing and thoughts on people. I was mentioning "the rescue" in general terms and not specifically CRHS.