Rian at Underground Reptiles BAD GUY

Tom, "perfect" is a subjective term. The buyers original response to the animal he received was positive. It was only after futher inspection that he found the "abrasion" on the lips, and some "scarring" on the back. The seller did not argue the point, he said simply return the animal, and I will refund your money. The buyer CHOSE to keep the animal. Translation in my mind - animal didn't look all that bad.

Your senario of shipping out a sick snake hoping it dies on the return trip is a valid, worse case, senario of buying reptiles online. However, I don't think the seller in this case knew of any problems w/ the animal. Just the impression I get.

It does sound like the seller agreed to pay part of the vet bill, if he did, he should. But, according to the sellers side of the story, the buyer was rude and abusive on the phone. So the seller may have decided to just wash his hands of this mess and not deal w/ this guy anymore.

I don't think this senario will every be resolved to either party's satisfaction. But, I do think there is something to be learned here: If you are not 100% satisfied w/ an animal you receive, and the seller says, send it back for a refund. DO IT! Any other course of action will probably end up costing you a lot more than shipping.

Brian,

There is a reason the jury has to stay for the whole trial and not just sent the opening statments

Also, I 'm a little short this week, being christmas and all.. can I sell you some animals?

j/k I DO not send out sick animals and knock on wood, I have never had a problem, but.... I would like the think if I did unknowlingly..... I would do EVERYTHING in my power to help not only the buyer, but the animal first and foremost.

I've been holding an animal that is a several hundred dollar sell, with only a small deposit, and although I could really use the money right now, I will not ship it til the weather is better where it is going, nor touch the deposit and balance, til I know the animal arrived and the customer is happy with it. It's costing me a lot to continue to feed it (its a PIG!) but I want that animal to travel and arrive at the buyer like I would want one coming to me.

I could sell him for the same locally and have the money now, but a promise is a promise and I stick to my committments, and I know the home he is going to is the best.......those are greater value to me than the money.

I can understand your point, and I have stated that before myself about returning the animal if their is a problem. But in many instances and I am referring to a general malfeasence here not limited to Underground, the animal should never have been shipped in the first place.

You will have to agree that the buyer is buying something sight unseen, and 90% of these sales are based on the good faith of the seller, providing his end of the bargain. It would have been an easier task for Underground to replace the Uro and have the buyer ship it back at a later date. This would have solved both problems that each of them faced. To some extent I understand Undergrounds dilemma, but he was looking at it as a time factor, and that should never have entered the picture.

Cheri, did you notice how many "I"'s there were in your post. Your way of doing business sounds great. However, one does not have to do business Cheri's way in order to be considered a good guy. He shipped what was, according to the buyer, a good looking animal. Remember the buyer's first reaction was very positive. In fact, the problems the buyer did manage to find with the animal, were so small (even after being bounced all the way across country in that horrible, tiny, cold box), that the buyer refused to return the animal and didn't even think the vet bill should be split at that point. The major problems developed (perhaps even occurred) while the buyer had pocession of the animal, am I the only one that sees that?

Jerry, normally I agree w/ 99% of what you say, this is not one of those times. And I believe your past relationship w/ Underground may be clouding your judgement. He offered a refund, and asked for the animal to be returned. BUYER REFUSED, end of story, buyer accepts ALL responsibilty at that point. If I called you up and ordered 15 cases of fruit fly cultures, got them in and called you back and said, "hey, there'll all here, and they look great." Then later called you back and said, well now the culture media in the bottom looks a little funny. You say, ok ship them back, and I'll replace them. I say no don't worry about it, I'll just have a buddy of mine take a look at them, and see what he thinks. Then a week or so later, I want my money back because even though my buddy (who hatched a butterfly once) worked really hard on fixing those things up, they all flopped. Are you really just gonna ship out 15 more cases?

It would have been an easier task for Underground to replace the Uro and have the buyer ship it back at a later date.

I don't know if you've ever shopped for uromastyxs or not, but trying to find c.b. adult female egyptian uros (whose cost is 2/$300) is harder than trying to find an albino ball python for $2k. Replacement was probably impossible.

Also, earlier you told the buyer the simply charge back the purchase. I find that very irresponible. The seller delivered the product, offered a refund, even at one point agreed to work w/ the buyer about some concerns he had with the product. Why then should he not be paid for what he delivered?

I think, once again, that what we have here is a classic case of "won't come talk on the BOI so he must be guilty." You've all read Undergrounds response, why does that side of the story get no credit what-so-ever? Just because we are all happy as a pig in poop to come here and discuss everything from business transactions to corn snake copulation does not mean everyone else has to be also.

Seller delivered product.

Customer was happy

Later customer finds a problem

Seller offers refund upon return

Buyer refuses

END OF STORY.

Uro was captive bred, but I dont know if that was the case. That may make a big difference with regard to this thread . Although you are also correct about my relationship with Rian, we resolved our differences, and he has a much clearer understanding of the difficulties that existed between the two of us. Interestingly enough had I not posted in this thread he never would have contacted me. If you read my posts concerning this matter, I was very careful to just relay my experiences with him, and you can infer your interpetations from that.

In sofar as charging back the credit card. Rians position is crystal clear about this. He intends on doing nothing about it. So the buyers options are limited to 1 avenue only. My position is not based on the fact that this is necessarily the right thing to do, but in this particular situation since the terms were veral, I think the buyer has an obligation to protect his interests financially.

The scenereo with regard to the fruitflies is a bit different in that our terms are spelled out very clearly. We only guarantee live delivery, and if the cultures are tampered with in any way after receipt it can only cause greater harm then good as these cultures are a mini eco system once they are set up. They should not be disturbed. Aside from which fruitflies propagate within a week to 10 days. Now if we could only do that with herps !

THE VERY BEST FOR THE NEW YEAR. MAKE IT A HAPPY AND HEALTHY ONE.

Brian,

Just thought I’d chime in and respond to your posts. Maybe I can fill in the gaps of the stuff you missed in the middle.

Buyer REFUSES to return animal and then attempts to fix the problem himself.

This is not true. I did not REFUSE to return the animal. I was offered a refund if I sent the animal back but I was also told I could bring her to the vet and they would work with me to get her back to health by splitting vet bills. This to me sounded like an honestly nice gesture and I felt that it would be the best for me and the animal. I was later offered a refund if I shipped the animal back after being goated into becoming financially and sentimentally attached to the animal by Underground Reptile’s statement that they would help pay for her bills and subsequent refusal to do so. If they had told me in the first place that the best thing would be to send her back so they could take care of her, bring her to a vet and get her back into shape I would have happily obliged.

Hey, this computer I bought from Dell doesn't work. They want me to return it, but I think I'll just take to the local computer store instead. Computer dies. What do you mean you won't refund my money?!?!?

The point is, if Dell recommended I see a local place to fix the problem and this option did not work they would still do something to rectify the situation. If Underground Reptiles told me they would not refund my money if I saw a local vet and the only way I could get a refund would be to return her, I would have done so, but this was not the case. I followed a course of action endorsed by them, and then they used it against me.

The buyers original response to the animal he received was positive. It was only after futher inspection that he found the "abrasion" on the lips, and some "scarring" on the back.

Yes, my original email to them was fairly positive, although I did state in that email that I was concerned about the abrasion...this did not come after the fact. Also, I wrote this email 5 minutes after I received her, before I found out she could not walk on her front leg. I called them an hour after receiving her to tell them about the leg.

It does sound like the seller agreed to pay part of the vet bill, if he did, he should. But, according to the sellers side of the story, the buyer was rude and abusive on the phone.

The first words out of Underground Reptile’s mouth in that phone conversation were something to the tune of, “Look man, your not getting any money back.” He never bothered to ask what happened or express any sympathy for me or the animal. He then went on to accuse me of killing an animal I had done everything I could to try and save. I was very upset at his last comment and told him not to f’ing talk to me like that and he hung up on me. This was the only swear word ever spoken between us and the only thing I think anyone could consider rude, but I feel like it was warranted given his totally inexcusable and offensive remarks.

If you feel like this is the way you are willing to be treated and the kind of reaction you would like to receive if you encounter a problem, by all means, do business with them. If you think this is how business should be dealt in the reptile trade, that is your opinion, but I disagree. I am only here to present the facts of our transaction. If you read Underground Reptile’s reply on their site and read my comments about them, you will see that they have lied. This is the only thing I can really prove. The rest you are going to have to find your own opinion about but I think if you read the entire thread you might change your mind about the whole situation.

Peter Ingoldsby

Rian sent me an email asking me to call him to talk at the store in a professional, friendly manner. So far he has seemed quite courteous and I am obliged to treat him the same. Hopefully I can take the time to listen to his side of the story, he can take the time to listen to mine and we can figure something out.

Peter

Peter,

Hope everything works just fine and you both get to an amicable resolution.

Following up on Rob's excellent reply earlier in this thread, and related to the treatment:

I took her to the veterinarian ($60) and she was given an analgesic.

OK

I took her in to her appointment and took an x-ray ($113) and she was given an oral anti-inflammatory.

In MHO at that point in time the organism was fighting off the infection. Anti-inflammatory drugs depress the immune response, and should only be administered if the inflammatory process was not infectious in nature (e.i. a traumatism). Your vet assumed it was a traumatism without doing a blood work first.

After another week of the swelling in her arm not subsiding (it had been 3 weeks at this point) I decided to take her into the veterinarian again in order to do a needle aspiration. The veterinarian found an unusual amount of white blood cells in the sample implying an infection.

The blood work should have been prior to administering anti-inflammatory drugs, and ATB should have been administered accordingly.

She was given oral antibiotics as well as pedialyte for hydration.

Too late. She was already dehydrated and I would venture her organism couldn't handle the ATB.

Just my opinion. This doesn not change the fact that you received an animal in less than optimal condition.

Again, good luck!

ACTUAL EMAILS:

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:44:28 -0500
From:
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To:
Subject: RE: Message about : Egyptian Uromastyx (Giant Adult Female Captive)(PHOTO)


First of all, how long has she been in captivity?
She is captive born, and 5 years old

Is she showing any signs of brumating for the winter?
No, she is still roaming around and eating normally.

How much does she weigh?
Approx 1.6 lbs

Is she currently housed with any other lizards and if so how does she get
along with them?
No, she has been solitary her whole life (as a pet)

How do you know she's a female?
We guarantee the accuracy of sexed uromastyx. There are no femoral pores,
and she probed female.


I would suggest to call us ASAP to order as this morning alone, I received
about 7 emails about her.

Thanks
Greg
Underground Reptiles
954.428.8005

_______________________

OK, now this animal was represented as captive born and kept by herself her entire life.

How then did she get the abrasions on her back? How was the arm injured? If there were white blood cells present, especially in large numbers, does that not indicate a long term infection? The abrasion on her mouth does not appear to be too old, it looks as though it has scabbed over but not scarred over.

Does anyone else get the feeling this animal was not captive bred and kept her entire life by herself? I don't know if Egypt has been open recently but she sure has all the signs of an imported lizard.

My brother kepts several species of Uromastix. He has gotten in many imports that look EXACTLY like this female did. He has gotten several uros that were captive bred and looked NOTHING like her. The capitves all had perfect skin and jaws.

If this lizard was mis-represented from the beginning then I think vet bills and replacement/refund fall on underground. Was a necropsy done on her to determine cause of death? Were there any parasites common to imports found in her? Is anyone else suspicious of this?

Wes Pollock

ps, isn't one of those ten commandment thingies about telling the truth? It doesn't seem that ryan or greg has read that one

Originally posted by wilomn
If there were white blood cells present, especially in large numbers, does that not indicate a long term infection?

Elevated WTB can occur fairly rapidly in response to infection. The response is slower in reptiles than in mammals but it does not necessarily indicate a long term condition. Days certainly, but probably not weeks.

Was a necropsy done on her to determine cause of death? Were there any parasites common to imports found in her? Is anyone else suspicious of this?

I certainly would be. I would look for evidence of parasites that could not easily have been picked up in the US. However it is also possible that this animal was in fact a CB specimen and the scarring was from heat lamp burns. I have seen animals with scar patterns matching this description (back and lips) that were caused by contact with a heat source unwisely placed in the cage. Hard to say without examining the animal.

I also agree with alvaro's comments - there were a lot of things that the vet could have done differently that might have made a difference in the outcome of this case.