Nature Coast Exotics… DISHONEST, DEADBEAT, CONMAN!!!!

I tried to scan the original letter but the file was too big. Attached is the soft copy of a letter from Alona Sankar, the director of the Guyana Wildlife Authority Wildlife Division concerning my problems with the animals Chris Hunter, of Nature Coast Exotics, stole.

Again, if anyone can give me some contact info. for a good attorney in FL, I would be grateful

-Mike Roberts
COBRA Wildlife Exporters
Stelling Road, Essequibo Coast
Guyana, South America
011-592-774-4624

it may make you feel better to know that while the chances of you recovering any monies pending in this gone-south transaction are very slim indeed, you have just saved one person from Nature Coast. I seriously was moments away from placing a rather large order through Chris's website--he had an ad up on Kingsnake that I saw and liked--but I had a little gut tingle that made me check the BOI.


I do not contribute regularly to any herp forums or boards, mainly my animals are my personal collection and I do not have the time to routinely converse, but I do want to thank you. I value the animal itself over any price paid and were I to get ripped off, I wouldnt have taken any action against him for fear for the animals. If one cannot afford to pay one's debts, then how can one afford to care for living breathing things?

I said I wasn’t going to battle this out on the BOI, but it has been brought to my attention that Mike has buried my response so deep in, posts after posts about me, and that I should have been more specific on my original post, that I should tell my side once again. So this is for all of you that have not had a chance to read back through, who knows how many pages, and read my side of the story. Let me go over my side ONE more time and offer a solution to this 2 year saga…

Mike contacted ME and wanted to know if I would be interested in importing from him. My very first question was “Can you supply large FEMALE dwarf and smooth front caiman?” His answer was “YES.” I thought finally, I have been looking for someone to supply large “female” caiman for over 4 years with absolutely no luck. He talked the talk, told me how great he was, how ALL the fancy stuff (from Guyana) that Pete at Incredible Pets has sold in the past, all came from him, and so on and on and on…I really thought he was the man so I was sold..

We discussed the caiman in detail. I told him upfront that I wanted all girls over 40”. He told me “No problem!” I know now, that I shouldn’t have expressed to him how excited I was to be able to finally get female caiman (I realize now that he used that against me). .. He then told me that I would have to take other stuff as well. He said that I couldn’t just buy the good stuff off his quota but that I had to take other stuff as well, to make it worth his while. Again, I thought, if I can get these female caiman it would be worth it and if he was, as good as he said he was, I could make some money dealing with him. He sent over the first list of the animals I had to take to get the female caiman. On that list was Green Amevias, Gold Tegus, Cooks Tree boas, all the cheap stuff. . .

During that time, he said he had already collected a few caiman and sent me some pictures. I asked him what sex they were and he said he didn’t know yet. He said he had a book that could help him sex them, another clue I should have picked up on. But to be honest the pictures he sent, got me even more excited and those of you with a passion for herps, know what I am talking about. Sometime during those conversations, both by email and phone, he said that he might not be able to produce all females on the adult caiman. He said that the collectors’ collect in small dug-out canoes and it is hard for them to sex them in the small boat. I was so impressed (again against my better judgment) with the pictures he sent getting me so excited, I told him that I would settle for a 50/50 split on the sexes, even though I did this whole deal based on getting all big FEMALE caiman. I figured if I ordered 14 that I would end up with at least 7 girls and I would be happy with that. The total at that time was $3450.00. This was for 2 Dwarf caiman over 40”, 10 Smooth front caiman over 40” with at least a 50/50 sex split (preferably more females than males), but a guaranteed Minimum of 50/50 and all the other stuff from his quota.

He required a 50% deposit sent to his dad because they both had the same name and his dad could cash it, then forward the money to Mike. Who knows what he is trying to hide there, but anyway I did it. After he got the 50% deposit, everything was going great. We talked about me getting more animals on the first shipment and he had me so pumped up, I said sure, so we added a bunch of stuff making the total now over $5400.00. It came down to the wire… the flight was booked, paperwork complete and he said he was 2 adult caiman short for the order and the number of animals on the paperwork has to match up with the number he ships. He said he knew a collector, that was on the way to the airport, and that person had 2 adults but he didn’t know the sex of them. He said one of them was the biggest that collector had ever seen. I ordered heavy females so I thought, if these 2 end up being males, I would still end up with a 50/50 sex split. I told him to do it and he did.

He shipped just like he said, on the day he said he would. I personally went to Miami and was there long before the shipment ever cleared. I paid the broker and the freight in full. I brought the stuff back and it all looked great. There was 1 dead baby caiman but everything else LOOKED very good. The caiman were big, just like I ordered. They looked great. I assumed the sexes were close so I told him how happy I was with the way they LOOKED. The next day, I began to put them in the pond. At that time, I sexed them and to my MAJOR DISSAPOINTMENT, the 2 dwarfs were both males and out of the 12 smooth fronts, well, there were 10 males and 2 females!!! I could not believe it!! The MINIMUM amount of girls should have been 7! I thought, what am I going to do with all these males and how am I going to get the females that I wanted so badly to begin with. On one hand, the males he sent were great animals but I really needed females. That was the whole reason I placed the order in the first place. I immediately CALLED him. I told him the ratio on the caiman was WAY off and that even though I could PROBABLY sell the extra males, what I needed and what I ordered, were girls.. He said that he would send only females on the next shipment, which he was already preparing for me. I told him great. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and thought he would stick to his word.

His original terms said I would have to pay the remaining balance in 14 days. After having the shipment for only 3 days, he started asking when he could get the other 50%. That is when I asked if he had located any more female caiman. He said “don’t worry I will get them for you.” The truth is, I was worried. I was trying to delay him on sending the final payment until I knew I was getting the female caiman that I originally ordered. To put him off a little longer then, I sent him the other 50% of the original order of $3450. I had ABSOLUTLY NO problem paying for ALL the other stuff but I had a problem paying for all the extra male caiman and I wasn’t going to pay for them until I knew for sure he was going to make good on his word. This left a balance of under $2000. I kept this all to myself trying to keep the piece so I get what I originally ordered. In the mean-time, he starts this crap about he has used all of his quota for caiman, but he could buy other exporters quotas to get them to me. I could see the whole deal going south right then.. A few more days passed by and he sent me the CITES paperwork for the 2nd shipment and guess what, but not to my surprise, there were NO caiman on it at all…. Not 1! About that time, he got the check for the other 50% of the original order. We talked at that time and he told me to send him the remaining balance on the first shipment and 50% of the 2nd shipment and he would get the quotas for the caiman and send them in the 3rd shipment. Again, like a fool I said okay.

During this time, I spoke to several importers and told them about my problem. They ALL said, if you pay this guy for those male caiman, he will never make it right. They also said, think about it. How easy is it to sex 40”+ caiman? He sent those to you on purpose to keep you on the hook. I thought about it and they were right.. My 10 year old nephew can sex a caiman of that size with a 100% accuracy. Why can’t this big-time exporter , stick his finger in the cloacae? It’s not rocket-science… when you put your finger in there, you either feel something or you don’t.. Letting my passion for crocs cloud my better judgment, I thought I would just stall him until I knew for sure what his intentions were. I sent him a couple partial payments bringing the total down to less than $1600. I fed him all kinds of excuses but ALWAYS asking if he got the quotas for the caiman. Finally, it got through my thick head, that this jerk was not going to make good on his word, so I told him I was not paying the balance and that he could have the males back. I told him I would ship them anywhere he wanted, but I couldn’t use 10 extra males. MALES DON’T LAY EGGS!!!

The way I looked at it was… I ordered 14 adult caiman with at least a 50/50 sex split. Their cost was $200 each plus crate and freight. He sent 12 males and 2 females. I ordered minimum pairs so I am only obligated to pay for 4 of those. 2 males and 2 females but I brought the total down way below what was fair. The balance is under $1600 and the 10 extra males at $200 ea plus his crate charges is over $2000. I thought that was more than fair. It means that I paid for 2 males and 2 females of the smooth fronts and 2 male dwarfs even though I only wanted girls.

Now that I think about it, I bet this was his plan… Knowing how bad I wanted the female caiman, he made me take all the other stuff to go with them. He then purposely sent me males so I would have to order from him again and again and again, to get the girls I originally wanted.

For 2 years now, I have been feeding, caring for and offering the extra male Smooth front caiman for cost $250 ea plus shipping. Mike sent 1 person named Chris to purchase a caiman. I talked with him on the phone and explained the whole deal to him. I told him that I was selling the Smooth front males for $250 each to be paid to Mike, BUT this guy (Chris) wanted a Dwarf male… a completely different species than the smooth front. Out of 14 adults, Mike sent 2 Dwarfs. I specifically stated that I would sell the 8 extra smooth front males. NEVER once, did I say, I would sell a dwarf for $250. After the headache this whole deal has been, there was no way I was taking even more of a beating and selling the dwarfs to make Mike happy and still leaving me with the 8 extra smooth front males. In case you are wondering why the price is $250 instead of $200, I paid the shipping and crate charge from South America to here, so it is only fair that, that is covered.

Now, after 2 years of Mike’s attempting to shame me into paying for animals he couldn’t sex, that deal is off the table. This guy has talked crap to everyone to make me look bad and shame me into paying. When the truth is, it is HIS fault we are here now… I admit I should have been more demanding and not just gone along with it and hoped it worked out , as this doesn’t work with Mike. Mike tells you want you want to hear to get your money and doesn’t make good on his word. If he just wouldn’t have tried to scam me into multiple shipments, to get what I originally ordered, and shipped me what I ordered in the first place, he would have been paid a long time ago. PERIOD.

Now Mike can copy and post my emails to him, BUT we talked on the phone MORE than we emailed. I have copies of my bill to show that we had several, several phone conversations. Speaking of emails though, when I have time, I will go back through the emails he sent me and forward the one he wrote me about, wanting to smuggle Black Caiman, to USFW…along with the picture he sent me of him holding a baby black caiman. I bet they would like to see that.

Mikes’ claims of me hiding and not answering the phone are false. I have been at the same address since he first shipped me. He has made several trips to Florida in the past 2 years and NOT once has even tried to contact me. He claims I hung up on him every time he called from another number.. Well Mike, prove it… Show me 1, just 1, phone bill where you called my number and I hung up. If you did what your claiming , than there will be a 1 minute call on whose ever phone bill you claim to have called me from. If I answered the phone and hung it up, instantly you would still have the 1 minute charge. He will never provide it because he never called. He never showed up here because he knew he was in the wrong. I told him to bring Pete from Incredible Pets here (as Pete has a Florida license for caiman) and I would be happy to give him all the extra males and let Pete sell them. I also offered to ship Pete the extra male caiman several times and never once has he brought that up either. His main concern is trying to shame me into paying for them.

I talked to other people that Mike still thinks he is in good standings with and they know exactly how he works. But they know he is such a hot head that they are scared to post about him. Look at the way he jumped down any ones throat that even remotely said anything nice about me or my company. If you sit back and read through what he has written, you can see the type of person we are dealing with. NOT once has he ever offered any info about the adult caiman and his screw- up on their sexes. He just keeps putting the blame on me. Again, I paid for everything he shipped including his ridiculous crate charges except for the 8 extra male caiman. It was bad enough that I had to pay the freight on those extra males at $3.00 per pound. Not to mention, because of his scam, I have not got the first caiman egg since I got that shipment from him. I had a group of producing caiman but since it has been over run with males, the females won’t nest. So, not only am I being blackmailed, he screwed up what I already had going and that has cost me way more than the $1600 he wants me to pay.

Mike thinks he is making me look bad and, maybe, to some people he is. Not that it has hurt my business, actually I think it has helped. The people that read this thread can’t help but go to our web site and check it out for themselves and most make their own decisions. I am sure that there are a lot of people this thread has stirred away, but I have got a lot of new customers, thanks to it.

Out of all the people who have posted backing Mike and the people reading this… it boils down to this… I have paid for everything I ordered. The animals in question are the adult caiman. I ordered 14 females. He beat me down to accepting heavy girls with a minimum of 7 boys and 7 girls but he assured me heavy females and I agreed. He shipped me 12 boys and 2 girls and never offered any kind of compromise for his screw-up, besides claiming he would send more females of which he couldn’t get the permits for anyway. If you the reader, ordered 7 males and 7 females of any species of animals and you were sent 12 males and only 2 females, would you pay for the extra males?

The only thing that I can come up with is that Mike was trying to scam me from the start. I know if I honestly made a mistake and shipped out a order & screwed the sex ratio up that bad, I would offer some kind of restitution. . Instead this jerk tries to shame me into paying for them. Nobody reading this can honestly say that, if they ordered 7.7 and got 12.2, they wouldn’t be mad and unwilling to pay for them. What if I did that to you? Would you pay me?

Here is my solution… Mike, you admit publicly that you either didn’t sex them, sexed them and shipped them anyway, knowing they were mostly males, that you lied and have no clue about sexing them or what- ever your excuse is, just so admit your at fault and I will paypal you 50% of the remaining balance of $1600 and we never mention each other again.

I still have the animals and I have had them for 2 years. I am no longer offering them back to you or for sale to anyone at the original price. As I said I have housed, fed and cared for these guys for 2 years and it’s not fair to me to take even more of a hit, to satisfy Mike. I already have finished a new enclosure to house the extra males away from my breeder females so I am no longer willing to give them up. It’s been 2 years and if you really wanted them you would have made some attempt to get them or sell them. I admit, I am at some fault for not standing my ground when I got them, sexed them and realized he sent the wrong ratio. However, the bottom lineis, Mike didn’t send me what I ordered and he had NO plans of doing so EVER.

So this is the deal Mike… Admit you are at fault also. Tell the world why or how you screwed up sexing them and I will meet you in the middle and pay half of the balance. I will pay you via paypal $800 as a end to this saga. You are still making out. That would be me paying $100 ea for the 8 extra males that are still owed upon, which is still doubling your money. You told me yourself you paid the collectors $50 ea to catch them. I on the other hand, have lost 2, maybe even, 3 years of production on the caiman I already had producing. I have had to build a whole new enclosure to house these extra males (which isn’t cheap the enclosure is 75 ft x 70 ft) and have had to put up with the lies you have been spreading all over your caiman sex scam.

Otherwise, here are the numbers you were asking for (as if you couldn‘t have gotten them yourself):

Hernando county Sheriffs Department (352) 754-6830
Florida Fish and Wildlife (850) 488-6253
Attorneys located in Brooksville: Merrit & Keller (352) 796-9380; Cagianone Miller & Anthony (352) 796-6733; Merricks Hale Swope & Paulsen (352) 799-4100 and, if that still isn’t enough, here is the number for the Florida Bar Lawyer Referral Service (800) 342-8011

I took those numbers right out of the phone book, so it is again obvious, you don’t have a clue and if you did have a leg to stand on, you would have called them already. The only reason you ask readers of this thread to provide it to you, is you know it will bring this thread back on the top of the list by posting anything you can think of.. It’s obvious that you were just trying to shame me into paying for your screw up. Look at the post just after yours the other day… Someone said he saw an ad of mine on Kingsnake and was moments away from purchasing until he read this thread.. Come on.. Everyone knows I have not put 1 ad on there in a year or more. Another one of your shame tactics to keep me at the top of the list.

I will no longer stand for the crap your pulling nor will I sit back and let you try to make me look bad when you are at fault.

I will monitor this thread and wait for your admittance of guilt and your paypal address to end this saga. I am not going to go back and forth with you either. We both know this is the way it went down. If you do try to go back and forth, I will just keep burring your post with this multi paged monster of the real truth!!

Again all I need from you (Mike) is acceptance of guilt on the sex ratio you sent, your acceptance of this deal & your paypal address. Anything else will be considered, back and forth, garbage!

Thanks,

Chris Hunter

President
Nature Coast Exotics Inc.
www.NatureCoastExotics.com

Don't be fooled by this bozo's lengthy bullshit post folks, here is a link to my dealings with Chris "Con-Man" Hunter of Nature Coast Exotics...

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...+Coast+Exotics

He is one of the lowest forms of humanity I have yet encountered in my short 23 years on Earth. God bless you Chris, I pray someday you receive the justice you deserve after a career of cowardly defrauding helpless online victims.

Kind regards,
Matthew J. Quinn

Chris,
Your a fool because you ASSUMED that 7 caimens would be females.

"QUOTE:

The way I looked at it was… I ordered 14 adult caiman with at least a 50/50 sex split."

Randal

Having never met either of the involved parties, I not only found NCEI's reply rude and rather crass, but also quite presumptuous.

I was seconds away from placing an order yesterday for the aldabra tortoise as seen on Chris Hunter's website. I found the website through a Kingsnake referral, when I had inquired about where I could find a "dabby" that would be able to be shipped this time of the year up north.

Going through all of the pictures on his site, I noticed a few amphibians that caught my eye. Because I do like to check guarantees on less expensive critters, and see what market pricing is, I checked the classifieds on here, hoping to find at the very least that everyone was charging around the same for the specific animals I wanted that NCEI has. Well, I found a nice ad actually from NCEI. It was mainly a pricelist, but still had prevalent information on it. I will link it here, but do not know if thats allowed, please let me know if indeed its not, and I will remove it.


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=94090


In that ad, NCEI was praising itself on how wonderful of a 7 day guarantee they have in place for those amphibs they have listed. I had almost passed NCEI on my tests for purchasing that aldabra as well as several amphibians when I went back to their site. Reading once more over the shipping terms, I saw another something that caught my eye----THEY HAVE A SPECIAL GUARANTEE ON AMPHIBIANS. Its not unheard of, but they only guarantee live arrival on amphibs. They do not provide the wonderful 7 DAY GUARANTEE that is listed right there on their ad. The whole ad is nothing but amphibians---I could understand if you placed up an ad that had mixes of amphibs, snakes, and torts---and the seven day guarantee praise was meant for the other critters, but in this ad all that was listed was amphibians. I am by no means accusing of anything here, but that was just too fishy for me. You list a guarantee, but do not imply it to the animals. If there is nothing other than a live arrival guarantee on the animals that the ad is representing, there is no need to have the ad sing praises on a "7-day guarantee!!" that no one will be getting.


Where do you go when you just dont feel right about something in the herp world? What happens when there are just some things that dont really add all the way up? The same thing you do when you've just eaten supper and there's nothing on cable or when youre snowed in for a week----BOI.

Had I not found Mike Roberts postings, just think! I would have purchased something from you. Nasty thought!


P.S. The only shame on this board is you not paying Mr. Roberts. I dont care what he sent you. I dont care what YOU think you "had" to do to keep these critters. He still sent them, and you kept them. You now owe for him for them.

Sorry for my delay in response. As many know, I also work as a guide in remote areas and I just returned from the South Essequibo River with a Seattle journalist. Been out of the loop for a bit.

Well, it’s good to see Mr. Hunter has appeared, once more. It saddens me, however, to read his ridiculously outlandish fairytales but one has to admire an imagination like that! Kind of makes one wonder why he just didn’t answer any of my e-mails, phone calls, certified mail from our Miami attorney (as posted on this site) or a certified letter from the Guyana Wildlife Management Authority, before now. Apparently, he was MIA for all those months cooking up this fantastic tale.

Chris,

All females? Are you nuts? (Obviously, I don’t expect you to answer. I already read your reply). Who would take an order like that? It is a rare find to get a female in that size that’s in perfect shape. In fact, it’s difficult to get either sex in good shape when they get that large. Problem being, males get larger and males fight. Females breed long before that size.

The original deal was 50/50. I sent you pictures and exact details of EVERY animal I had for you. We both knew EXACTLY how many males and females there were. Not only that, I wrote on each and every crate the exact size and sex of EVERY animal. Yes, it’s true, we were heavy on the male side but you still wanted every animal and personally Oked EVERYTHING. Think I would have shipped it otherwise?

Let’s just think about this for a second or two…

Ya know the reason no one would deal with you in all the years you claimed to search (assuming they hadn’t heard of your reputation) is because that is a loosing deal. They are almost impossible to catch, dangerous to handle, difficult to house (my station is not built for that size) and worth $200. Who wants that deal? I did it because I love the work, not because I was getting rich. The nerve you have to then burn me on the payment!

Now, let’s address some of your claims. You indicated I duped you into taking those two animals you didn’t want because “the paperwork has to match up”. What, were you drunk when you wrote that and thought it would fly? Anyone who exports or imports knows that is coo coo! I can ship up to what is on the paperwork. Not over! Seldom do I have an order match up exactly and almost everyone will short ship an animal if it does not look healthy during its final inspection or dies. We simply file papers with the government and they credit us back the paperwork on a future order. Orders don’t have to match up, you screwball! You make it sound like I just swung into the local Wal-Mart, on the way to the airport, and picked up a couple more jumbo caiman to run your bill up and it was a total shot in the dark for you.

I’ll tackle two more of your amusing claims in this one… When have I ever claimed to be a “big time exporter”? I am granted the nation’s smallest quota. Remember, I’m an American working down here and it has been blood, sweat and tears to make it this far. So, moving on to the next amusing claim,… YES, I do purchase paperwork off other exporters. Likewise, I have no interest or market for birds, so I sell off what I don’t want on my quota to other exporters. Nothing sneaky going on there, genius! I told you that’s how it works from day one.

When did I ever tell you my dad has the same name? The simplest way to get funds to me is for a USA based resident to deposit directly into my Bank Of America account from which COBRA Wildlife Exporters can make direct withdrawals. The reason I asked you to send the check to my dad is because I didn’t trust you with my account information. Man, did I call that one right, ha?

Let us deal with your petering out payments and endless excuses. Surprised you admitted that one. Must have been the booze writing there. YOU ordered all the extra stuff. You also had Emerald Tree Boas, Redtail Boas, Redfoot Tortoises, Yellowfoot Tortoises, and a bunch of other high-quality, high-end stuff. Forget to mention all that? How much did you make off that? As soon as you got the animals, which you knew the sex ratio before I shipped, which also had the sex and size written on each and every crate, you kept ordering more and more animals. I have never had a problem finding a market for my animals so why do you think I would force you into taking anything? The truth of the matter is you just thought you would burn another Guyanese exporter and that would be the end of it. Would anyone in their right mind continue to collect, quarantine, submit governmental papers and pay levies if they thought there was even a remote chance they would get burned by the importer? The fact is, I got burned here. The ball was ALWAYS in your court. That’s exactly why I don’t grant anyone else the terms you had and for that I’m sorry to the honest importers. Once bitten,…

Concerning smuggling Black Caiman,… Now this one burns me up!!!! It’s true, I have asked a few key imports for letters of intent to purchase if the North Rupununi District Board Of Directors (an elected board representing 15 villages in the North Rupununi District) is successful with getting paperwork to thin the wild population out as this area is thought to be the most densely populated stretch of river on the planet. It’s no secrete, I want to be in on the ground floor, should that ever happen. With a recent fatality in the remote Amerindian village of Apoteri, it only adds weight to the Amerindian’s plea to thin the population. That’s the only conversation we had so IF you find the email you wrote about, please Cc. that to me when you send it off to USFW. Now, I would never dream of asking for you to hunt for the picture of me holding a Black Caiman. You can see it right here: http://www.hinterlandertours.com/guides.htm

I’m sure sorry your caiman breeding project failed because you put in too many males. You should have read the big black letters on each crate before you dumped them out and ran. I’m sure your 10-year-old nephew could have told you it’s not a good idea to disrupt your alleged breeding program with newly introduced animals. If it aint broke,…

No need to send me the info on the sheriff’s department or Florida Fish and Wildlife, I already have them booked marked. Please, ask your 10-year-old nephew to read you what I wrote! I was asking for an attorney that would take this $1,600 case on contingency. You know all too well, there is no way I could recover any funds from you without spending far more in attorney fees.

Concerning all your friends calling me a “hothead”. Well, I could buy that. I worked my tail off for your order. In fact, I try as hard as I can to send the best animals Guyana has to offer. This has often been at the sacrifice of spending time with my family as I am often gone from dusk to dawn, returning home just in time to put on another hat and head back out the door trying to make a living. How much money do you think I make selling reptiles, anyway. Believe me, you made a killing on the animals I sent you. PLUS, you shafted me! Win-win situation for you, ha? Yep, I do tend to get a bit testy when I hear your name. Ya got me there!

BTW, those same people who you think I consider my friends,… I have known from their second or third email they are playing both sides of the fence. It’s often been said the problem with the reptile trade is there’s way to many snakes and you’re the king daddy, Chris Hunter!!

Oh, also, you already have all my Paypall as you made two little payments “stringing me along” but if you need me to send it to you again, just say the word. I would love for this to be over. Live and learn on both sides.

-Mike Roberts
COBRA Wildlife Exporters
Lot 34 Stelling Road / Adventure
Essequibo Coast, Guyana
South America
011-592-774-4624

Sorry for the delay in my response, I was waiting to see if Mike was on tonight’s episode of Fox’s new hit show “Are you smarter than a fifth grader” and I think he was the blonde guy. Anyway, I briefly scanned Mikes post and I see that I lit his short fuse. Come on Mike now, I agreed to 12 males and you wrote that on the box.. Yea right! If that was the case I would have left them in Miami. See what I mean back and forth garbage! I clearly stated what my thoughts were as to what you were thinking. I also offered a solution to this saga. Apparently you were so “HOT”, you didn’t take the time to fully read and understand what I wrote in my previous post. Because Mike is so busy guiding and because I also want this to end, I took the liberty of reposting what I originally posted below. If you (Mike) cool off and read the detailed post below and keep your cool long enough you will see what it will take to solve this saga. ..

I said I wasn’t going to battle this out on the BOI, but it has been brought to my attention that Mike has buried my response so deep in, posts after posts about me, and that I should have been more specific on my original post, that I should tell my side once again. So this is for all of you that have not had a chance to read back through, who knows how many pages, and read my side of the story. Let me go over my side ONE more time and offer a solution to this 2 year saga…

Mike contacted ME and wanted to know if I would be interested in importing from him. My very first question was “Can you supply large FEMALE dwarf and smooth front caiman?” His answer was “YES.” I thought finally, I have been looking for someone to supply large “female” caiman for over 4 years with absolutely no luck. He talked the talk, told me how great he was, how ALL the fancy stuff (from Guyana) that Pete at Incredible Pets has sold in the past, all came from him, and so on and on and on…I really thought he was the man so I was sold..

We discussed the caiman in detail. I told him upfront that I wanted all girls over 40”. He told me “No problem!” I know now, that I shouldn’t have expressed to him how excited I was to be able to finally get female caiman (I realize now that he used that against me). .. He then told me that I would have to take other stuff as well. He said that I couldn’t just buy the good stuff off his quota but that I had to take other stuff as well, to make it worth his while. Again, I thought, if I can get these female caiman it would be worth it and if he was, as good as he said he was, I could make some money dealing with him. He sent over the first list of the animals I had to take to get the female caiman. On that list was Green Amevias, Gold Tegus, Cooks Tree boas, all the cheap stuff. . .

During that time, he said he had already collected a few caiman and sent me some pictures. I asked him what sex they were and he said he didn’t know yet. He said he had a book that could help him sex them, another clue I should have picked up on. But to be honest the pictures he sent, got me even more excited and those of you with a passion for herps, know what I am talking about. Sometime during those conversations, both by email and phone, he said that he might not be able to produce all females on the adult caiman. He said that the collectors’ collect in small dug-out canoes and it is hard for them to sex them in the small boat. I was so impressed (again against my better judgment) with the pictures he sent getting me so excited, I told him that I would settle for a 50/50 split on the sexes, even though I did this whole deal based on getting all big FEMALE caiman. I figured if I ordered 14 that I would end up with at least 7 girls and I would be happy with that. The total at that time was $3450.00. This was for 2 Dwarf caiman over 40”, 10 Smooth front caiman over 40” with at least a 50/50 sex split (preferably more females than males), but a guaranteed Minimum of 50/50 and all the other stuff from his quota.

He required a 50% deposit sent to his dad because they both had the same name and his dad could cash it, then forward the money to Mike. Who knows what he is trying to hide there, but anyway I did it. After he got the 50% deposit, everything was going great. We talked about me getting more animals on the first shipment and he had me so pumped up, I said sure, so we added a bunch of stuff making the total now over $5400.00. It came down to the wire… the flight was booked, paperwork complete and he said he was 2 adult caiman short for the order and the number of animals on the paperwork has to match up with the number he ships. He said he knew a collector, that was on the way to the airport, and that person had 2 adults but he didn’t know the sex of them. He said one of them was the biggest that collector had ever seen. I ordered heavy females so I thought, if these 2 end up being males, I would still end up with a 50/50 sex split. I told him to do it and he did.

He shipped just like he said, on the day he said he would. I personally went to Miami and was there long before the shipment ever cleared. I paid the broker and the freight in full. I brought the stuff back and it all looked great. There was 1 dead baby caiman but everything else LOOKED very good. The caiman were big, just like I ordered. They looked great. I assumed the sexes were close so I told him how happy I was with the way they LOOKED. The next day, I began to put them in the pond. At that time, I sexed them and to my MAJOR DISSAPOINTMENT, the 2 dwarfs were both males and out of the 12 smooth fronts, well, there were 10 males and 2 females!!! I could not believe it!! The MINIMUM amount of girls should have been 7! I thought, what am I going to do with all these males and how am I going to get the females that I wanted so badly to begin with. On one hand, the males he sent were great animals but I really needed females. That was the whole reason I placed the order in the first place. I immediately CALLED him. I told him the ratio on the caiman was WAY off and that even though I could PROBABLY sell the extra males, what I needed and what I ordered, were girls.. He said that he would send only females on the next shipment, which he was already preparing for me. I told him great. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and thought he would stick to his word.

His original terms said I would have to pay the remaining balance in 14 days. After having the shipment for only 3 days, he started asking when he could get the other 50%. That is when I asked if he had located any more female caiman. He said “don’t worry I will get them for you.” The truth is, I was worried. I was trying to delay him on sending the final payment until I knew I was getting the female caiman that I originally ordered. To put him off a little longer then, I sent him the other 50% of the original order of $3450. I had ABSOLUTLY NO problem paying for ALL the other stuff but I had a problem paying for all the extra male caiman and I wasn’t going to pay for them until I knew for sure he was going to make good on his word. This left a balance of under $2000. I kept this all to myself trying to keep the piece so I get what I originally ordered. In the mean-time, he starts this crap about he has used all of his quota for caiman, but he could buy other exporters quotas to get them to me. I could see the whole deal going south right then.. A few more days passed by and he sent me the CITES paperwork for the 2nd shipment and guess what, but not to my surprise, there were NO caiman on it at all…. Not 1! About that time, he got the check for the other 50% of the original order. We talked at that time and he told me to send him the remaining balance on the first shipment and 50% of the 2nd shipment and he would get the quotas for the caiman and send them in the 3rd shipment. Again, like a fool I said okay.

During this time, I spoke to several importers and told them about my problem. They ALL said, if you pay this guy for those male caiman, he will never make it right. They also said, think about it. How easy is it to sex 40”+ caiman? He sent those to you on purpose to keep you on the hook. I thought about it and they were right.. My 10 year old nephew can sex a caiman of that size with a 100% accuracy. Why can’t this big-time exporter , stick his finger in the cloacae? It’s not rocket-science… when you put your finger in there, you either feel something or you don’t.. Letting my passion for crocs cloud my better judgment, I thought I would just stall him until I knew for sure what his intentions were. I sent him a couple partial payments bringing the total down to less than $1600. I fed him all kinds of excuses but ALWAYS asking if he got the quotas for the caiman. Finally, it got through my thick head, that this jerk was not going to make good on his word, so I told him I was not paying the balance and that he could have the males back. I told him I would ship them anywhere he wanted, but I couldn’t use 10 extra males. MALES DON’T LAY EGGS!!!

The way I looked at it was… I ordered 14 adult caiman with at least a 50/50 sex split. Their cost was $200 each plus crate and freight. He sent 12 males and 2 females. I ordered minimum pairs so I am only obligated to pay for 4 of those. 2 males and 2 females but I brought the total down way below what was fair. The balance is under $1600 and the 10 extra males at $200 ea plus his crate charges is over $2000. I thought that was more than fair. It means that I paid for 2 males and 2 females of the smooth fronts and 2 male dwarfs even though I only wanted girls.

Now that I think about it, I bet this was his plan… Knowing how bad I wanted the female caiman, he made me take all the other stuff to go with them. He then purposely sent me males so I would have to order from him again and again and again, to get the girls I originally wanted.

For 2 years now, I have been feeding, caring for and offering the extra male Smooth front caiman for cost $250 ea plus shipping. Mike sent 1 person named Chris to purchase a caiman. I talked with him on the phone and explained the whole deal to him. I told him that I was selling the Smooth front males for $250 each to be paid to Mike, BUT this guy (Chris) wanted a Dwarf male… a completely different species than the smooth front. Out of 14 adults, Mike sent 2 Dwarfs. I specifically stated that I would sell the 8 extra smooth front males. NEVER once, did I say, I would sell a dwarf for $250. After the headache this whole deal has been, there was no way I was taking even more of a beating and selling the dwarfs to make Mike happy and still leaving me with the 8 extra smooth front males. In case you are wondering why the price is $250 instead of $200, I paid the shipping and crate charge from South America to here, so it is only fair that, that is covered.

Now, after 2 years of Mike’s attempting to shame me into paying for animals he couldn’t sex, that deal is off the table. This guy has talked crap to everyone to make me look bad and shame me into paying. When the truth is, it is HIS fault we are here now… I admit I should have been more demanding and not just gone along with it and hoped it worked out , as this doesn’t work with Mike. Mike tells you want you want to hear to get your money and doesn’t make good on his word. If he just wouldn’t have tried to scam me into multiple shipments, to get what I originally ordered, and shipped me what I ordered in the first place, he would have been paid a long time ago. PERIOD.

Now Mike can copy and post my emails to him, BUT we talked on the phone MORE than we emailed. I have copies of my bill to show that we had several, several phone conversations. Speaking of emails though, when I have time, I will go back through the emails he sent me and forward the one he wrote me about, wanting to smuggle Black Caiman, to USFW…along with the picture he sent me of him holding a baby black caiman. I bet they would like to see that.

Mikes’ claims of me hiding and not answering the phone are false. I have been at the same address since he first shipped me. He has made several trips to Florida in the past 2 years and NOT once has even tried to contact me. He claims I hung up on him every time he called from another number.. Well Mike, prove it… Show me 1, just 1, phone bill where you called my number and I hung up. If you did what your claiming , than there will be a 1 minute call on whose ever phone bill you claim to have called me from. If I answered the phone and hung it up, instantly you would still have the 1 minute charge. He will never provide it because he never called. He never showed up here because he knew he was in the wrong. I told him to bring Pete from Incredible Pets here (as Pete has a Florida license for caiman) and I would be happy to give him all the extra males and let Pete sell them. I also offered to ship Pete the extra male caiman several times and never once has he brought that up either. His main concern is trying to shame me into paying for them.

I talked to other people that Mike still thinks he is in good standings with and they know exactly how he works. But they know he is such a hot head that they are scared to post about him. Look at the way he jumped down any ones throat that even remotely said anything nice about me or my company. If you sit back and read through what he has written, you can see the type of person we are dealing with. NOT once has he ever offered any info about the adult caiman and his screw- up on their sexes. He just keeps putting the blame on me. Again, I paid for everything he shipped including his ridiculous crate charges except for the 8 extra male caiman. It was bad enough that I had to pay the freight on those extra males at $3.00 per pound. Not to mention, because of his scam, I have not got the first caiman egg since I got that shipment from him. I had a group of producing caiman but since it has been over run with males, the females won’t nest. So, not only am I being blackmailed, he screwed up what I already had going and that has cost me way more than the $1600 he wants me to pay.

Mike thinks he is making me look bad and, maybe, to some people he is. Not that it has hurt my business, actually I think it has helped. The people that read this thread can’t help but go to our web site and check it out for themselves and most make their own decisions. I am sure that there are a lot of people this thread has stirred away, but I have got a lot of new customers, thanks to it.

Out of all the people who have posted backing Mike and the people reading this… it boils down to this… I have paid for everything I ordered. The animals in question are the adult caiman. I ordered 14 females. He beat me down to accepting heavy girls with a minimum of 7 boys and 7 girls but he assured me heavy females and I agreed. He shipped me 12 boys and 2 girls and never offered any kind of compromise for his screw-up, besides claiming he would send more females of which he couldn’t get the permits for anyway. If you the reader, ordered 7 males and 7 females of any species of animals and you were sent 12 males and only 2 females, would you pay for the extra males?

The only thing that I can come up with is that Mike was trying to scam me from the start. I know if I honestly made a mistake and shipped out a order & screwed the sex ratio up that bad, I would offer some kind of restitution. . Instead this jerk tries to shame me into paying for them. Nobody reading this can honestly say that, if they ordered 7.7 and got 12.2, they wouldn’t be mad and unwilling to pay for them. What if I did that to you? Would you pay me?

Here is my solution… Mike, you admit publicly that you either didn’t sex them, sexed them and shipped them anyway, knowing they were mostly males, that you lied and have no clue about sexing them or what- ever your excuse is, just so admit your at fault and I will paypal you 50% of the remaining balance of $1600 and we never mention each other again.

I still have the animals and I have had them for 2 years. I am no longer offering them back to you or for sale to anyone at the original price. As I said I have housed, fed and cared for these guys for 2 years and it’s not fair to me to take even more of a hit, to satisfy Mike. I already have finished a new enclosure to house the extra males away from my breeder females so I am no longer willing to give them up. It’s been 2 years and if you really wanted them you would have made some attempt to get them or sell them. I admit, I am at some fault for not standing my ground when I got them, sexed them and realized he sent the wrong ratio. However, the bottom lineis, Mike didn’t send me what I ordered and he had NO plans of doing so EVER.

So this is the deal Mike… Admit you are at fault also. Tell the world why or how you screwed up sexing them and I will meet you in the middle and pay half of the balance. I will pay you via paypal $800 as a end to this saga. You are still making out. That would be me paying $100 ea for the 8 extra males that are still owed upon, which is still doubling your money. You told me yourself you paid the collectors $50 ea to catch them. I on the other hand, have lost 2, maybe even, 3 years of production on the caiman I already had producing. I have had to build a whole new enclosure to house these extra males (which isn’t cheap the enclosure is 75 ft x 70 ft) and have had to put up with the lies you have been spreading all over your caiman sex scam.

Otherwise, here are the numbers you were asking for (as if you couldn‘t have gotten them yourself):

Hernando county Sheriffs Department (352) 754-6830
Florida Fish and Wildlife (850) 488-6253
Attorneys located in Brooksville: Merrit & Keller (352) 796-9380; Cagianone Miller & Anthony (352) 796-6733; Merricks Hale Swope & Paulsen (352) 799-4100 and, if that still isn’t enough, here is the number for the Florida Bar Lawyer Referral Service (800) 342-8011

I took those numbers right out of the phone book, so it is again obvious, you don’t have a clue and if you did have a leg to stand on, you would have called them already. The only reason you ask readers of this thread to provide it to you, is you know it will bring this thread back on the top of the list by posting anything you can think of.. It’s obvious that you were just trying to shame me into paying for your screw up. Look at the post just after yours the other day… Someone said he saw an ad of mine on Kingsnake and was moments away from purchasing until he read this thread.. Come on.. Everyone knows I have not put 1 ad on there in a year or more. Another one of your shame tactics to keep me at the top of the list.

I will no longer stand for the crap your pulling nor will I sit back and let you try to make me look bad when you are at fault.

I will monitor this thread and wait for your admittance of guilt and your paypal address to end this saga. I am not going to go back and forth with you either. We both know this is the way it went down. If you do try to go back and forth, I will just keep burring your post with this multi paged monster of the real truth!!

Again all I need from you (Mike) is acceptance of guilt on the sex ratio you sent, your acceptance of this deal & your paypal address. Anything else will be considered, back and forth, garbage!

Thanks,

Chris Hunter

President
Nature Coast Exotics Inc.

Mike have you gotten any bit of your money from NCEI yet? He keeps posting the same nonsense repeatedly, so hopefully you'll get payment from CHRIS HUNTER towards all that outstanding debt he owes you soon. Keep us all informed, please!

I have to say Chris that the expanded version of your explanation definitely has some merit. You make a good case for the adjustment in the shipment price.

Any comment Mike? This is a drastically different picture than you have painted.