Shane Porter

Free floating ribs really do not wander much due to muscle and organs holding them in place. They will calcify back to the break with help from the muscles to get them in place. The body is an amazing thing.

We now have the first signs of one breaking with a possible RI Clicking, holding the head up, and a sneeze. It has now officially gone from 3 possible breeding females, to two possible breeding females, to no breeding females Yeah, probably going to need all my money back and then some....PM me your best tips. I might hear something I havent before. Sooo glad for a good QT area!

Shane, I havn't seen any response to the x-rays or the RI. I sure as hell hope your sleeping right now and will respond with full intent to fully reeburse Kathy. Kathy, knowing and having good credit with a vet is good. Im glad you are taking care of these snakes now. If you did get a receipt for the vet, I'd post a pic or scan of it as well. Maybe it will help Shane sleep better at night.

I don't usually like to comment on these BOI threads but since I have gone through a paypal transaction where the seller was a "scammer" and I needed my money back even though it had been sent through as a gift I will give some suggestions/ tips. I don't know what bank you have but they should all follow somewhat similar guidelines. I would call them if you haven't already done so and tell them the situation that you received animal or a "product" that was misrepresented. I told my bank it was a snake for myself. The regulations for different fees might be different but mine was for $200 on a debit card and another $200 on a credit via paypal all transactions sent as a gift. Again I told them the situation and they got my money back in 5 days usually takes 3-5 business days from what they told me. It should be a simple 30 minute phone call or so but your bank is typically willing to please so they should work with you. I hope this helps you out and I know it would help to cover vet fees which a seller should compensate you for but I know in situations like this, it may not be reality. I wish you good luck and I'm happy they fell into your hands.

Originally Posted by AceOfSpadesReptiles

I hope this helps you out and I know it would help to cover vet fees which a seller should compensate you for but I know in situations like this, it may not be reality. I wish you good luck and I'm happy they fell into your hands.

The problem with that is that once her funds were returned to her, the snakes would become the seller's property again. It's possible that, once the money was taken from him, he may be willing to renegotiate a price that'd reflect a heavy discount to help cover vet costs. However, based on how he's chosen to accept zero responsibility for their condition, I have to doubt that he'd be so reasonable.

If/when negotiations failed, she'd be obligated to give him a reasonable amount of time to arrange for his property to be returned to him. As much as I'd love to see the guy Kruse-ified, I don't think it'd be right for her to keep the snakes and the money, unless the seller would actually agree to it. Either way, based on the following statements, I don't think that the OP has any intentions of sending them back to him:

Originally Posted by Fila

I would never forgive myself if the money was more important than the health of these snakes so shipping them back would have been unethical on my part.

Originally Posted by Fila

They were here, not going back, so really what sex they were wasn't a huge concern other than to prove or disprove what they were sold as and that would not change no matter when we did it

I hate to see anyone getting screwed over, but it is refreshing to see someone value their animals in terms other than dollars and cents. I have to applaud her apparent willingness to do right by the animals, even if the seller doesn't do right by her.

They may reattach, if they are still held in place by surrounding structures (connective tissue), and the bones are able to make a little "bridge" to them. For a snake that is all ribs and moving a lot, I would imagine this is unlikely, but possible. In my experience (as a vet tech and reptile rehabber), you have a best, middle, and worst case scenario:

Best: The ribs don't migrate anywhere dangerous and she quickly develops scar tissue around them to sequester them and keep them from migrating. The ribs basically are treated like a foreign body and her body will work to enclose it in fibrous tissue and it sits in there forever with no real issue except stiffness and maybe some movement problems.

Middle: The same thing as above, but the process takes a long time because she has an intense inflammatory reaction to the broken ribs and she stays sick and painful for a while, maybe has occasional flare-ups of inflammation that make her feel crummy from time to time.

Worst: Broken snake ribs are like little needles. Worst case is that they migrate into vital tissue (lungs, digestive tract, etc). This can cause complications ranging from none (unlikely) to severe inflammation causing lifelong problems (for instance into the lungs, where she may have respiratory problems forever), to rupture of said organs causing death from bleeding, infection (for instance if her digestive tract is ruptured and leaks digestive contents into her abdomen), death from organ failure (a ruptured bladder or destroyed kidney, for instance), or complications from scar tissue causing an obstruction (not in a snake, but we had a dog come in once with a cluster of porcupine quills that migrated into his chest. They created so much inflammation and scar tissue it was cutting off the circulation and nerve function to one front leg. We fixed it with surgery, but he still doesn't have full function of the limb).

My advice would be to keep her movements restricted, feed her much smaller meals than she could normally eat (to avoid expending her ribs/abdomen too much), and take follow up x-rays to keep an eye on the position of the "floaters")

I think 6 weeks is a safe bet in terms of seeing what consequences there may be, but keep in mind it is not unheard of for foreign bodies (which are basically what the floating ribs are now) to cause issues years later. She will always be a little 'special needs' IMO. I would consider taking radiographs every 6 months to a year, and doing bloodwork yearly or any time she seems unwell, to ensure she isn't going to start having an issue.

Also, I'm sure you already though of this, but I wouldn't breed her, if she were mine. Getting all swollen with eggs would be a great way to upset those floating ribs.

Good luck. It's really unfortunate that this easily could have been prevented.

Originally Posted by ApexPredatorBoids

If/when negotiations failed, she'd be obligated to give him a reasonable amount of time to arrange for his property to be returned to him. As much as I'd love to see the guy Kruse-ified, I don't think it'd be right for her to keep the snakes and the money, unless the seller would actually agree to it.

I'd love to see that...

She's not obligated to return them, she might be obligated to let him come get them if he's not too chicken to do so

I personally think it would be right to keep the property he neglected and the money but short of that, maybe he can pick them up at the animal control office along with being arrested for animal abuse...

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

She's not obligated to return them, she might be obligated to let him come get them if he's not too chicken to do so

Which is why I worded my response as I did.

Originally Posted by ME

give him a reasonable amount of time to arrange for his property to be returned to him

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I personally think it would be right to keep the property he neglected and the money but short of that, maybe he can pick them up at the animal control office along with being arrested for animal abuse...

Unless we're officially doing away with the old axiom about two wrongs not making a right, her choosing to exercise unlawful control over his property would simply bring her down to his level. Also, I'm all for the smiting of one's enemies, however, turning them over to animal control wouldn't seem to be the right move for someone who actually has the snakes' best interests in mind.

I would just like to say that I live near Kathy and know her personally. She is a good person in every aspect. I have also examined the 4 females she received from Shane myself. Everything that has been presented here is accurate. Very poor shipping practice which caused fractured ribs and probable respiratory issues. One of them has a damaged eye. I can not tell if it is A LOT of stuck eye caps, or if it has been damaged in some other way. Either way, it is blind from that eye. Not to mention one of them is thin, and they are all well under the weights told to her at the time of purchase. She was looking forward to having more females to put to all of her males this year. That's not going to happen now.

Shane Porter is not someone I will personally ever do business with. He was no assistance from the get go once she informed him of the heath and shipping issues with those females. He's trying to make Kathy look like the one in the wrong here because she took a couple of hours to gather herself and assess the damages to present them in an accurate and civilized manner.

If you are one to value integrity, please avoid Shane.

I totally agree with Brandon, Kathy is a really good lady. Then again, Brandon is an awesome guy as well.