Paradigm shift

Do you know what REALLY pisses me off? Last year, Chris Johnson and I got into some really major head banging. I'm sure those posts are still here somewhere, but the result of that was that I got finally pissed off enough that I just outright banned him. Refunded his money for his advertising and paid membership and told him to hit the road. Well as things later transpired, I felt that perhaps I had made a mistake in judgement concerning him and his actions and because of this, I lifted the ban and allowed him to come back. I allowed him to continue on here when I had had the opportunity to STOP him in his tracks from using this site to lure unsuspecting people FROM here, seeing all the positive indicators about him, to doing business with him. Yeah, hindsight, I realize, but still, I DID have the opportunity to stop him at least partially. Of course, this is all just my opinion based on the current status of events surrounding him.

Now, how many people could possibly have been saved from getting burned (in my opinion) from this guy if I had kept him banned from this site? His good guy certification would not have been here, his Trader Rating and karma rating would not have been on the front page of the forums. His name in every post would have shown PLAINLY that he was BANNED from here, sending a warning sign to everyone that something just was not all peaches and cream about him. Yes, certainly with the high karma rating, GGC poll and high Traders Rating a lot of other people made mistakes in judgement as well, but that certainly does not make me feel any better about MY mistake.

My mistake in judgement may have hurt some good people here. I failed these people with what I had intended his site to be used for.

I know it may happen again, because I am NOT psychic and I am not perfect in my judgements. But my INTENT is to try hard not to let that happen again.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Do you know what REALLY pisses me off? Last year, Chris Johnson and I got into some really major head banging. I'm sure those posts are still here somewhere, but the result of that was that I got finally pissed off enough that I just outright banned him. Refunded his money for his advertising and paid membership and told him to hit the road. Well as things later transpired, I felt that perhaps I had made a mistake in judgement concerning him and his actions and because of this, I lifted the ban and allowed him to come back. I allowed him to continue on here when I had had the opportunity to STOP him in his tracks from using this site to lure unsuspecting people FROM here, seeing all the positive indicators about him, to doing business with him. Yeah, hindsight, I realize, but still, I DID have the opportunity to stop him at least partially. Of course, this is all just my opinion based on the current status of events surrounding him.

Now, how many people could possibly have been saved from getting burned (in my opinion) from this guy if I had kept him banned from this site? His good guy certification would not have been here, his Trader Rating and karma rating would not have been on the front page of the forums. His name in every post would have shown PLAINLY that he was BANNED from here, sending a warning sign to everyone that something just was not all peaches and cream about him. Yes, certainly with the high karma rating, GGC poll and high Traders Rating a lot of other people made mistakes in judgement as well, but that certainly does not make me feel any better about MY mistake.

My mistake in judgement may have hurt some good people here. I failed these people with what I had intended his site to be used for.

I know it may happen again, because I am NOT psychic and I am not perfect in my judgements. But my INTENT is to try hard not to let that happen again.

I'm sure there are a number of people who wished you had kept him "BANNED", but you can't kick yourself for not being psychic, that's what everyone else is here for.

On what we knew back then Rich there is now way you or anyone else could have seen what was to come. You cant beat yourself up over that. No one thought Chris to be a scammer, just an ass.

One of the people scammed by him was a close friend I personally sent to Chris last November. And I flat out told her at the time that I don't like Chris even a little bit as a person but as a business he is completely trustworthy. So I know first hand how you feel.

But you are no more accountable for what Chris did than I am, Rich.

I am in agreement about the freedom here. I am one of the ones that tells it like it is. If it is a spade, it is a spade and black is still black. but the way the system is set up now, it seems we must show the scammers respect. When IMO, they deserve none. I am not saying, have a free for all, but there should be a place in the middle that would work. I remember the days of old, when you could say just enough to draw them out. Thus showing their true colors. If we said enough, and showed enough proof they would loose it and get themself banned. But the way the system is set up now, we would be given warning points for disrespecting them. So IMO, somewhere in the middle would work.

Let the hounds have a little more freedom to do what they do best. I also think it would help the ratings, seems everyone these days tune into the drama.

IMO, if this would have been in place when Chris was on the TSE thread, there would have been even higher views, as well as ratings on that thread.
I think we all know how he would have reacted.

Rich I'm in agreement with David and Sammy IE
"My mistake in judgement may have hurt some good people here. I failed these people with what I had intended his site to be used for."

Ya can't beat yourself up over that mess, hell everyone who left a good guy rating or good guy post ETC would be just as guilty by your train of thought. Funny how no one liked him but most felt he was an upstanding businessman.

Myself I don't really want to see the wild west revisited here. Yeah we had some fun and busted some bad guys but there were also a few good guys that got hammered in those feeding frenzies. Relaxing the rules a bit may help some, I think somewhere in the middle between the old Wild west and the current kinder gentler Fauna would be about right .

As was said your not going to make everyone happy here, one of the reasons there are so many sites is because they each offer a bit different atmosphere and people can choose where they feel most comfortable.

The BOI is the draw here and no matter what you do the controversy there will make many uncomfortable which I think it is the likely reason the forums are used no more than they are. Just a few thoughts ...Randy

How many people do we walk past every day that may rob a bank, murder, steal or con? No one can take credit for Chris and those that got taken by him. That was always a risk in the reptile industry when dealing with hets. I am truely surprised that no one had done it before Chris. He is the exception and unfortunately for many (some I would consider friends) he was very good at his deception. Now we just hope the law catches him and makes others think twice about pulling the same scam. Some are going to slide by you can't do a full scale back round check with references on everyone. You feel guilty about helping him with the good guy cert etc... Well possibly some but he would have found a way to con people anyways and Rich how many people do you think you have saved because of this site? I know many so even in retrospect this site has done far more in outing scammers and saving people money than it ever will in helping people to scam. I am one of the people it helped.

Oh I really wish there was an edit button.

Varnyard: IMO, if this would have been in place when Chris was on the TSE thread, there would have been even higher views, as well as ratings on that thread.
I think we all know how he would have reacted.

This is not saying that I think Rich could have done something to stop Chris. So I want clear this statement up a bit. Rich, it is not you that is responsible for all these scammers. Look at Chris, he knew what he was doing three years ago when he started this scam. Is it your fought he was pulling this scam? NO WAY!! He got most of this great feedback from people that bought these unproven hets. Then more went to him for the same deal. I hate to say it, but I doubt any of these are going to prove out. He has not been selling long enough to be a proven seller of hets. I do not deal in hets at all. I even sold a 100% het albino female with all of the papers last year as a normal, just for this exact reason. If I sell a morph, then it can be clearly seen as just that. If it is a het from a questionable source, then it is a normal. I will even say this, look at all of the 50% and 66% that are being sold. IMO, they are nothing but normals, nothing more. I say this because there is usually no proof that a ball python is 66% or 50% het, most of the time there are no papers to go on them either. IMO, some of them are just trying a ploy to raise the money a little higher. I have not, nor will I start selling snakes on someones word that they are het.

So I got a little off the topic, but you see my point. How can you say it was anyway at all your fought? These people trusted Chris on his word that they are as he said. It is sad at best that someone can hurt our hobby like he did, and walk away with everyones cash.

That said, if the new rules were not put into place, would these people still have gotten scammed? I think there is a good chance most of them would have. Most people buy because of someones feedback, not the way they act. Look at Ebay, does anyone know how these sellers act? For the most part, no. What is it that we look at there? Feedback is all we have to go on. Chris had that, but not because any of his hets were proven.

So IMO, there is no one to blame for Chris's actions, but Chris!! Could something been done to stop him sooner? IMO, I do not think there could have. So Rich, do not beat yourself up over this, when the truth is, there was nothing you really could have done to stop it.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Sammy, for a self proclaimed "Freelance Philosopher", I think you missed the point completely of this thread. Read it again, please, and then tell me the potential benefits of allowing the "poop slingers" to soil their own hands.

I'm done trying to please people. NOW I am going to do what I think will WORK and cause me the lesser headaches.

Check out the newly modified warning system when you get a chance. Still got some fine tuning to do here, but it will give you an idea of where I am heading.

I'm rolling back the rules quite a bit so the "clowns" can be aptly and distinctly identified as being clowns. It may well be a reflection of how they do business, so I think this is important information to allow to be visible to their potential customers. Now the burden is on THEM to act mature and professional. My rules are not going to save those people from themselves who are not really that way at all. They will be judged as they really are.

Take Greg Holland, for instance...... Please.....

There you go again asshole trying to analyze everything.

Rich, why don't you post all the PM's I sent to you. Don't just take little clips here and there, post them all to show eveyone what I really think of you.

Maybe I should have just called you an asshole or cock sucker without asking to be banned, yep I think that would've done the trick.

Your fucking rules change everyday. What exactly could you mean by this:

My rules are not going to save those people from themselves who are not really that way at all. They will be judged as they really are.

I love the way you word things. It's kind of like you are reading off cuecards next to the computer!!

Maybe some people are smart enough to realize that what I'm saying to you just may have some substance to it, and that that Weblave guy truly is a fucking idiot. Or maybe they think "Cool site for the most part, but what a fucking tard the owner is." Ever think of that son?

I'm done trying to please people. NOW I am going to do what I think will WORK and cause me the lesser headaches.

That is the funniest thing I think you have ever said. Pleasing people, yeah why not, since you're so pleasing. Don't make me fucking laugh.

Rich, my guess will be that you will be able to put up with this for a little while, but since you are a weak little punk you eventually you will break down under all the presure and ban me. Not sure how long it take, but trust me, you will!!

Now for all the other people saying things like "don't get banned, just don't click on the site, and just don't visit any longer." I guess the temptation is just there.

Rich, I love the way you project your "wanna be servant attitude of trying to be a 'people pleaser'", but come one man, you are just an old man that gets his jolly's off seeing people do things like this. But one thing is for sure, you will get tired of it. You will break, I will win this battle, and then once I am banned you can come back here sling all the shit you want about your "rules showing the full character of the person."

So Richard I'll be waiting chewing my nails in anticipation of your response because everyone knows that you will have a very clever response to what I have posted.

Originally Posted by gmherps

There you go again asshole trying to analyze everything.

Rich, why don't you post all the PM's I sent to you. Don't just take little clips here and there, post them all to show eveyone what I really think of you.

Maybe I should have just called you an asshole or cock sucker without asking to be banned, yep I think that would've done the trick.

Your fucking rules change everyday. What exactly could you mean by this:



I love the way you word things. It's kind of like you are reading off cuecards next to the computer!!

Maybe some people are smart enough to realize that what I'm saying to you just may have some substance to it, and that that Weblave guy truly is a fucking idiot. Or maybe they think "Cool site for the most part, but what a fucking tard the owner is." Ever think of that son?



That is the funniest thing I think you have ever said. Pleasing people, yeah why not, since you're so pleasing. Don't make me fucking laugh.

Rich, my guess will be that you will be able to put up with this for a little while, but since you are a weak little punk you eventually you will break down under all the presure and ban me. Not sure how long it take, but trust me, you will!!

Now for all the other people saying things like "don't get banned, just don't click on the site, and just don't visit any longer." I guess the temptation is just there.

Rich, I love the way you project your "wanna be servant attitude of trying to be a 'people pleaser'", but come one man, you are just an old man that gets his jolly's off seeing people do things like this. But one thing is for sure, you will get tired of it. You will break, I will win this battle, and then once I am banned you can come back here sling all the shit you want about your "rules showing the full character of the person."

So Richard I'll be waiting chewing my nails in anticipation of your response because everyone knows that you will have a very clever response to what I have posted.

Any respect I had for Greg just went Your abusive behavior is unacceptable. You should be ashamed of yourself for acting as you are. Shame on you Greg.