Todd Smith (Deal Gone South)

brian

my purchase was going to be 350.00 but 350..1000..or whatever its alot of money if its going to be lost or if there is a problem.
now that being said..there are ALOT of people i would send 1000.00 too if i had too.
its not practical for me to fly across the country etc but i understand what your saying about seeing the animal first..in the perfect world it would be nice to be able to travel to the seller..check out the snake first and hand over the loot..
if i could only pack myself into an airborne box and do just that..
how fun that would be..

Gary, if you'd actually read my posts you'd see that I agree with you about Greg deserving a refund. Genetics, health, feeding are all possible avenues for him to get said refund. What I am trying to explain to you people, is that Greg should have checked on Todd's refund policy BEFORE THE SALE!!!!!!!!! Perhaps, (we don't know), Todd doesn't give refunds. Greg has never said that he checked any of that up front. He has never showed us any emails. He has never pointed us to Todd's website or his ad.

Everyone is just assuming to that Greg is entitled to a refund because he's not happy with the snake. When in fact the case may be that the Todd made it very clear that his only health guarantee was that the snakes would arrive alive. If Greg knew that, confirmed that they did arrive alive, then the deal is closed. I AGREE THAT THOSE TERMS SUCK MUCH BOOTY, especially when we're talking about a $1000 snake, but, from what we know so far, Greg agreed to them.

I'm playing the devil's advocate here for a reason folks. I got burned badly several years ago. I didn't protect myself up front, and in the end my only recourse would have been to fly across country and beat the crap out of somebody, which wouldn't have been cost effective because we were only talking about $200 and a whole lot of aggravation. Know the seller if possible, and if you don't, have their terms in writting up front. Discuss what happens if there is a problem, before there is one. If you don't like/aren't comfortable with their policies before the sale, you can bet you really won't be after the sale. Insist on pictures taken on the front of a daily newspaper so you can see what the animal looks like now! And if you are buying animals worth thousands of dollars isn't it worth another couple a hundred to go and pick them out yourself?

Greg, I just discovered something that I found a little strange. I was reading the Generasian thread where you were upset because they had not responding to your offer of a trade of 5' hypo produced by Jeremy Stone and a 3' female produced by Boa Republic on 3/19. Those two snakes seem awfully familiar. Are they in fact the same two you reported recieved from Todd on the same date?

Okay, I've stayed away from this one, but just wanted to chime in on what Brian is saying here about refunds, policies, etc.

In other words Brian, what you are saying, is that since Greg did not ask Todd up front about his return policies, he is less entitled to a refund than someone who did ask? So should Greg have asked him, "Todd, now, if I receive this snake from you, and find that you've completely misrepresented and lied about its health, feeding habits, and genetics, what kind of restitution will you make?" I agree that you should ask all the pertinent questions up front in a purchase, but there is also a line in asking TOO many questions. This is one of the reasons I am trying to stick to people I know or that have clearly posted terms in their ads/websites. But I am not everyone, and I have also bought from people I don't know at all. Every once in a while, you have to go with someone you have no or little experience with to get what you want, does that mean you should get screwed for it?

I think even you agree that the bottom line is that even though Greg didn't ask every little detail involving possible problems up front(when it gets down to it, how many of us DO ask for all the possible solutions for possible problems up front?), from the information we've been given, he was lied to by the seller. Plain and simple. Regardless if Greg asked every question possible before purchase, Greg bought and paid for an animal he did not receive.

Greg asked about the animal's feeding habits and was told it is feeding great on f/t rats. That has been shown now to be untrue. And Todd even had the gall to tell Greg he needed to medicate the snake with Flagyl to induce a feeding response! What kind of healthy, feeding snake needs to take meds to eat?

Greg asked for paperwork on the genetics of the snake. He has not been provided with anything. And the breeder who is supposed to have produced this animal can't vouch for it(though this isn't SUCH a big deal as there are no id numbers or other proof for Greg to ask Jeremy Stone about, it still is questionable).

Greg bought and paid for a healthy, feeding, male hypo double het for whatever. He got a non-feeding and thin animal of unknown genetic background. So in other words, he got 0% of what he paid for in my opinion. Greg got 0% of what he paid for, so he should get back 100% of his payment, not 75%, not 99%, 100%.

Brian,

interesting add on, I completely missed that thread. Perhaps I'll go take a look see.

And just another note...

Most of us doing this are not rich by any means as I'm sure you well know. It's hard enough to scrape up the extra $1000 to get a snake for most of us(trust me, I KNOW lol). Adding an extra couple hundred or whatever gas/plane tickets cost is bordering excessive...but of course paying a grand for a snake isn't. LOL

Rob, assuming Greg's story is 100% true, the only instance in which he wouldn't be entitled to a refund is if Todd had a stated policy of no refunds. Or something along those lines, such as any returns must be made within x amount of hours/days of receipt. I understand one can't cover everything before the sale, but return policy or lack thereof should be one of those things that is discussed. If Todd stated his policy up front as "arrive alive and in good condition" and Greg agreed to his terms then the health issue was closed as soon as Greg said they arrived "alive and in good condition."

Please see my above post also, it looks to me like Greg not only received those snakes alive and in good condition, but was also comfortable enough with their appearance to offer up those snakes for trade the very same day he claims to have received them. I could be wrong though, we'll have wait for Greg to reply.

...from the information we've been given, he was lied to by the seller.

I agree Brian, that is why I said, "...from the information we've been given..." Unfortunately, we only have Greg's side of the story, we do not have Todd's. For whatever reason, he's chosen to stay off the board(which could go either way for him at this point). That unfortunately only leaves us with one side of the story, which although not fair, until Todd comes into it, leaves us without much else to go on than Greg's presentation of the facts.

Also, I will have to go back and read that thread about Generasian and the animals Greg wanted to trade. Thanks for pointing out that tidbit. Perhaps Greg set up the trade prior to receipt of the animals? Perhaps not.

I am not condemning Greg, or even Todd really(though it sounds that way, without hearing his side I really can't condemn him, but I DO disagree strongly with his actions as presented to us).

And just out of curiosity, Brian, let's say a seller does have a "No refunds" policy. Does that make it okay for the seller to lie to the buyer about the animal and ship him/her something they didn't give their hard-earned money for(the sick non-feeder versus that shows up versus the healthy chowhound that was advertised)?

No, absolutely not. But again we only have Greg saying that was how the animal was represented. He hasn't posted any actual email from Todd proclaiming the snake as such. And don't forget by Greg's own admission Todd WAS WILLING to try and make the feeding situation right. Now, Greg and many people here may not have liked Todd's suggested remedy, but don't forget that he did offer one (two actually).

The more I think about it the more this smells fishy. Why, if Greg was so unhappy with the snake, did he think it was good enough to offer it up for a trade the night after he got it? Remember, he has already said it was several days later that he contacted Todd about his displeasure concerning the animal.

Brian,

To my knowledge Todd has no website or terms page for anyone to view. In my first inquiry to Todd in response to his Kingsnake ad I asked him about whether or not he guaranteed live arrival and if both animals were feeding on f/t rats. At this point these were just very basic questions since as I stated it was my first inquiry. I do not have a copy of this letter because I must not have checked off the box for a return copy be sent to me for my records. Todd responded that they were both feeding on f/t and that they were in excellent health having never been sick. A copy of that response has already been posted here. He also included a phone number in his reply so I decided to call him. It was on the phone that we discussed the animal's origins, pricing, health, genetics, etc. From our conversation I had no reason to believe that all was not in order. I was never told that the male hypo het anery was used the entire season as a breeder, was very thin and not feeding, or that I wouldn't have original documentation regarding genetics provided. I was led to believe that it was feeding and healthy. Regardless of Todd's return policy (that isn't written anywhere) the animal was not represented to me as having any health problems. His lack of mentioning this fact was NOT due to my negligence as I specifically asked all of these questions in our telephone conversation. After speaking with him I had no reason to believe I would be sent a substandard animal.
Your statement that I should fly out to wherever an animal is to view it first hand is both impractical and extremely costly. When I'm flying around the country who's paying for these costs, caring for my animals, and working my full time job? Perhaps you wouldn't buy $1,000 animals without viewing first but I spend that amount and more very frequently. Funny thing is out of literally hundreds of transactions over the net this is the first time I've been major burned. Now you can try to blame me for some type of negligence on my part or choose to place the blame where it correctly belongs. That being on the seller for misrepresenting the animal that led to this thread. I'm not going to waste my time here any longer dispelling what you feel in your mind I should have done.
Count how many times I've responded here and now I'd like you to count how many times Todd has come forward to explain his side of the situation. Do you honestly feel that if he had a leg to stand on he wouldn't come here to defend himself? You know he's aware of this thread because I notified him of it and even cordially invited his comments here. Now Brian I'd like you to really ponder the following question. Do you think there's just a remote possibility that he knows he's guilty and that's the reason he's chosen to remain silent? You know how it goes, "anything you choose to say can and will be used against you in a court of law".
Ya think?

Again Brian, you've completely missed the boat here. In response to the Generasian Exotics post, where do you see me saying on 3/19 that I had these to animals to trade them? Here's what I posted back when copied and pasted.

No Go For Me
Okay, I've inquired twice about this company and you don't think it's fair. How about my inquiry about what these people posted in their ad at Kingsnake, that being a trade for exactly what I offered them? Here's a copy of my letter to them in direct response to their ad at Kingsnake. It is the copy that Kingsnake sent me when I checked off the square requesting same.:

Subj: Message about : ALBINO BOAS AVAILABLE and TRADE!
Date: 3/14/2003 9:53:08 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: matrixninja70@aol.com
To: matrixninja70@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Below is a copy of the mesage you sent to GenerAsian Exotics

I'm interested in trading near adult boa morphs for your albino boas. I have a 5' male hypo from Jeremy Stone and a 3.5' female anery from Boa Republic that I'd like to trade. Where in Canada are you located? I'm in New Hampshire and wondering how difficult it would be to do a trade. Please let me know if you're interested in doing something or what else you may be interested in. I have a lot of boa morphs. Thank you.
Greg Riso


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This message was sent by the user: boamorphs

Sent 08:33 PM, Mar 14th, 2003 from I.P. Address 24.61.120.6


Okay, I only sent this letter to them two days ago and still have not heard a peep out of them. That's not to surreal but why do I have a feeling I'm never going to hear from them? Why would they post an ad looking to trade for what I have and not respond? I'm hesitant to deal with people who are hard to reach and are in another country where our laws in the US don't mean a lot even with reciprocity. The business I was considering doing with them would have amounted to at least $2,000 if not more.
Just because they have a fancy website, nice animals pictured in their ad, and claim to have sold an entire clutch of albino boas, doesn't mean they are legit.
I'm not here to bad mouth them at all. Maybe they are completely above board and I'd be happy to work with them if this is the case. What I am saying here is there's something a little fishy about them and until someone on planet Earth can tell me otherwise I don't think there'll ever be anything happening from this guy.


__________________
Greg Riso
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My letter to them regarding these two animals was sent a full five days before I actually had them in my possesion. I mentioned to them that I had these animals because technically I'd paid for them one week before and was expecting them in at any moment. The weather did not cooperate so I did not actually receive the animals until 3/19. My letter to Generasian was very preliminary and I was merely testing their interest in these animals or any other boa morphs I already had in my possesion. I had no way of knowing at that point that one of the animals Todd would end up sending me would be a bone. Of course had I known I would never have tried to sell such an animal and never will do so. If my dealings with Generasian had gone furthur I would have had no reason not to disclose their source of having come from Todd. So I ask you Brian, where did you get a date of 3/19 for me trying to market a sick animal to Generasian Exotics or anyone else for that matter. Man, you are so far off it's not funny.