Rick Miller---proof?

I just wanted to ask a question. If I sent you a baby ball and asked you to raise her for me for 3 years. What would you cahrge me for that service? The saddest part of all this is Al is probably one of the people taken that will be compensated. Ron Radloff

That is a tough question but I do not feel that it applies to this situation I feel that the compensation is not only for the food and care for three years it also has to do with the fact that you are now years behind on projects that you are trying to do. I also feel that you should not sale or resale(Broker) anyone elses hets that you cannot guarentee 100% what they are like I said in an earlir post I am sitting on 2.4 100% het pieds from Sean Brady in Orlando, FL I am questioning the genetics on these so I am now stuck with these animals until I prove them out it would not be fair for me to sell them to someone knowing how I feel about there genetics. I will not sell a het that I cannot place my own guarentee on some say that my guarentee is a little over board but I keep records of every het I sell on both disk and hard copies and I stand behind every animal I sell.

Originally Posted by NEWReptiles

I purchased 5 hets in total from Ron, these hets were sold with the guarentee of (word for word from the paperwork)

"I guarantee the above listed ball pythons are 100% het albino. If bred to an albino male they should produce albinos the first year. If bred to a het albino male they may not produce albinos until the second breeding. Gaurantee based on above breedings."

Buying these things was obviously a stupid idea on my part and I knew it was a dumb idea for about a year now. I didn't however, know that the deal was going to be "settled" by me getting a refund and sending the snakes back until today. Ron has told me numerous times since I explained my concern that he would " take care of me".

Al

Based on the info both of you have provided (and let me say that since virtually none of the facts of the situation seem to be in dispute it is obvious to me that you are both honest and straightforward guys) tell me if this synopsis of the situation is accurate.

1.) You purchased the animals for approximately 1/3 of the then current retail value

2.) Ron was up front and told you that the reason he was selling the animals so far below market was that Rick Miller, not Ron, had produced the animals and he could not verify beyond a shadow of a doubt that the animals were hets.

3.) He offerred a vague guaranty that you accepted as to the genetics but no specific remedy was ever stated or discussed.

He is now saying that he will honor the guaranty if they do not prove out (which is the expected result) by repurchasing the animals at their original purchase price.

If this is correct than it seems that the only dispute here are the specifics of implementing the guaranty. Since no specific remedy was ever discussed the guaranty is obviously open to a massive range of interpretation. It does seem that Ron very adequately expressed his concerns over the validity of the hets both in the sale price and by direct statement.

If all of the above is correct than I would say the only mistake here was in not hammering out the details of the guaranty up front. Blame is definitely shared there. Given the fact that everything was disclosed up front and taking into account the heavily discounted price, my opinion is that a reasonable remedy would be to give you a choice of a return of the animals and a 150% refund for your trouble or, you keep the now breedable females and he returns 1/2 of the purchase price. In the first option you have been compensated for the time and funds you have put into the animals and Ron recoups some of the refund by selling the females at market as normals. In the second instance, you are also compensated for your time and get to retain the now breedable females for your own use or resale.

Al, this in no way means that I do not think you have every right and cause to be pissed and frustrated by the situation but to automatically expect him to take a bigger hit than the purchase price here, given the situation, seems a bit over the top. If you had paid market price for the animals at the time and been asured that they were 100% without a shred of doubt, it would be an entirely different story. In this instance you took a chance on heavily discounted animals that had honest doubt cast on them prior to consumating the deal. In this instance, it didn't pay off.

Strictly my opinion

So what about my deal I bought a female het for 640.00 which market was around 700.00 I was told that she came with a getic guarentee I bought her and on the paperwork it stated that she was produced by Rick Miller and the seller was guarentee the genetics. It was never discussed what would happen if she doesnt prove out I did contact the seller about two months ago and he said to keep him posted now do you feel that because I paid the market price and have a guarentee that she was a 100% het that I should be compensated more than Al? your opinion is appreiciated thanks Paul

Paul

In my opinion, your situation is different. You paid market price for an animal that was 100% guaranteed het no ifs ands or buts. Given the considerably higher price you paid I think that your statement of a full refund and retaining the animals would not be unreasonable or, at the sellers discretion, return of the animal and a cash compensation similar to what I suggested in Al's situation for the time, money and energy spent.

I know it is not what either of you were expecting but you do have to take into account that you will be producing very saleable hets from these breedings. Small consolation but it definitely helps defray your loss.

Bottom line is that it is a crappy situation for all concerned.

And let me take this opportunity to state that Rick Miller should be strung up by something delicate and roasted over a slow fire for having been the cause of all this aggravation.

By the way Paul, who did you purchase your animal from?

Al I wonder what you'll say if your snakes do produce? Your jumping the gun here. I'd be worried in your shoes but I'd wait and see what was produced before bringing it here.

Al in the animal business ( I've done business in Horses, Dogs, Moo Moos , snakes ETC) The usual guarantee is to refund the purchase price of the animal no more no less. Depending on the breeder or seller they may agree to leave the animal in the buyers possession but that also depends on why the guarantee was invoked. Like any other business you invest and take your chances to a certain extent. You ask the guy to compensate you for what you didn't or better yet might or might not make selling babies from your animals right? I could buy a 50 thousand dollar colt as say a future breeding prospect, let say he's homozygous. 3 years down the line I have a sperm count done on him and find he's sterile. I have my vet verify it with the colts breeder and guess what I'll get back? the 50 grand I paid for the animal or another colt of the same value if they have one available their choice. And they may let me keep him if I want or they may want him returned and they'll pay the expense. It works the same way in dogs or any other animal I've death with. I have seen a few guarantees that offer more but not much more than that.

You can't expect the breeder or dealer to cover your lost revenue, what if the animal had died at a year of age? Say your cat got a hold of it. You'd be out the snake and the revenue. or what if the ball market went in the toilet and they were selling hets for 50 bucks? you'd still get what you paid for it. If Ron wants to compensate you for more than the purchase price well then he's a real great guy but most wouldn't.

So why not wait till you have babies before getting your blood pressure up to high over this. You bought these animals hoping that they would produce for you. You took a chance and if it doesn't work out you'll get your initial investment in these females back. Hey that's a far better result than most get from a failed business venture most people get nothing but bills in return.
Randy

Al I wonder what you'll say if your snakes do produce? Your jumping the gun here. I'd be worried in your shoes but I'd wait and see what was produced before bringing it here.

IF they do prove out then nothing is lost.....I've said it time and again its early to discuss this.

As far as all of your analogies, the don't pull weight. I bought and raised 100% hets. Its that easy.


John, I really, REALLY appreciate your imput and I do see Rons side as well as mine. I also am not far off as far aa the refund is concerned. ]


Time will tell and then if Ron does not like my resolution I will ask for others imput on the matter.

Please remember, when I bought these hets Rick was not suspect at all. They were sold to me at a discount because Ron did not produce them and also because I purchased 1.2 other hets AND 5.0 other possible hets. There were a few other factors that set the price on these..

what if the animal had died at a year of age? Say your cat got a hold of it. You'd be out the snake and the revenue. or what if the ball market went in the toilet and they were selling hets for 50 bucks? you'd still get what you paid for it.

WOW. What if????????

My cat didn't eat it nor did it die.
Also, it wouldn't matter what happened to the ball market as I bought X snake for X dollars and it was NOT what it was sold as.....Get it?

Al and your sure it's not what it was sold as? Seems to me that is yet to be determined.

Well they may not pull weight with you but it is how the vast majority do things. Seeing as you have no written guarantee what he has offered to you if the Hets don't prove out is more than fair. Yeah yeah I know you don't agree, you want thousands of dollars to cover an investment that at best was a risk. If you want a safe investment buy bonds.

I don't know but I'm beginning to wonder if the reason you keep posting about all this on the BOI is to set the stage to try and force the seller into giving you what you want? Sure is smelling fishy.

The guy called you a friend and you come here before you know one way or the other and post this stuff! I don't think you'll be happy no matter what happens, breeding any animal for profit is a risk.
Randy

This situation is a tough one to be involved with and I sympathize with everyone. I agree with all those who have stated to wait and see if there is even an issue.

The only point I would like to add is that Ron has shown in the past that he is a stand-up guy and probably will do more than most to resolve an issue.

I hope it works out for all involved.