Jim Flaherty of the Chameleon Company

Originally Posted by Dennis Hultman

To everyone else. This is a lesson you must take head of. Even if you don't do something willfully, (Willfully in this case would to be to purposely release a species and have it survive for more than what, a season?) and report on the awe factor of what was discovered you better be prepared for what your fellow hobbyists/competitors or people who just plain don't like you will do to sink you.

This is a very thoughtful post. Some people (I'm guilty too at times) post opinions without sometimes thinking through what the bigger picture might be.
Especially when the action is unintentional and no scam is being perpetrated, the warrior mode is not called for.
People should feel free to post information here and discuss what they have seen. When they get pounded, answers and solutions evaporate.
As long as they do no intentional harm, a gentler approach may be better. That way, the next guy who has something to say won't be afraid to post.

Here's an idea: Propose a party and chameleon posse where the wild chams are rounded up and carefully returned to Jim where he could sell them. (This isn't the only possible idea for those who want to find fault, but if Jim wanted them rounded up and I lived in Florida I'd definitely collect some for him in return for beer and pizza)

Good ol Florida.
As far as panther chameleons, if only I could find panthers here in Monterey County.
I'm going to sleep tonight and dream of catching chameleons in the wild and not paying insane prices

Originally Posted by jusmebabee

Good ol Florida.
As far as panther chameleons, if only I could find panthers here in Monterey County.
I'm going to sleep tonight and dream of catching chameleons in the wild and not paying insane prices

Make an offer to Jim, maybe he will let you keep in out of every 5 you find or something. Even with air fare it could be a great deal for you AND him.

Perhaps the rules for posting a bad guy BOI should be amended to only include instances where people are scammed or where animals are abused.

I have outlined my stance on the subject as well as provided evidence of such. Are not people that are scammed on a mission to get the word out?? Do you condemn them for sharing the evidence and spreading the word around?

Academic research has been provided in posts 78 and 79.

This is so much bigger than being ripped off for a few bucks, and if you fail to realize that, then I am not surprised the government is slowly placing many restrictions on the industry.

Originally Posted by Agoralyx

2003: Populations of C. calyptratus are identified as successfully breeding in Florida (perhaps even more successfully than in their native range).

Is Jim responsible for all of them being released in the wild in the early 2000's?
I wish the species on the Hawaiian islands were there while I was growing up.I was catching all the other things that were brought in from outside sources,one being the Philippines.

Originally Posted by jishillencik

This is so much bigger than being ripped off for a few bucks, and if you fail to realize that, then I am not surprised the government is slowly placing many restrictions on the industry.

I'm having a hard time finding in my post where I debated or taken a stance on releasing animals is a negative, positive or debating the repercussions or lack of them for that act.

What I did debate is the actual action that the accused is being charged with to form a opinion if he is a bad guy to do business with. Which is what all readers and contributors to threads do.

While the repercussions of accidental or purposeful releases is a topic related to thread only because the target of this thread is being labeled a bad guy because a non-willful act of a release, the thread has lead to more of a general discussion on what effects it has on the environment. Seems to me that is more of a general thread topic in a discussion group than evidence of a bad guy in this instance.

You are stating in this thread that people shouldn't do business with Jim because he had a accidental release that occurred. That he reported it to the community and that he was surprised they survived the winter. That makes him a bad guy?

If he prefaced those statements with something PC

term used to condemn language, actions, or policies as calculated to offend or upset any group of people in society.

like I'm so distraught that I harmed the environment with a accidental release but I was amazed they survived, would it make it all better?

What he did was describe a observation of a event that took place that resulted in something he did not expect. He stated it as a matter of fact.

That's the complaint. I'm not arguing its "bad" that it happened or not. If this was a general discussion I would chime in on that topic.

What is being stated here is Jim's a bad guy because the release happened no-matter the cause. I'm sorry that doesn't hold water as to why Jim is a bad guy and every hypocrite out there that has had a escape isn't one as well.

Perhaps the rules for posting a bad guy BOI should be amended to only include instances where people are scammed or where animals are abused.

I have outlined my stance on the subject as well as provided evidence of such. Are not people that are scammed on a mission to get the word out?? Do you condemn them for sharing the evidence and spreading the word around?

There is no need for such foolery to limit peoples opinion. Some people agree with the reason to label him unfit for this business and others not. Just because some people feel your evidence lacking in stating he is a bad guy doesn't mean you can't post your position. It also doesn't mean that the same people might have those exact same opinions as you on introduced species. Or maybe not..

In this particular instance I (That's Personally) don't think the evidence posted suggests what your stating. Separately the topic of the ecosystem, repercussions, what's good for the community is a broader topic and not necessarily a focal point of what a person necessarily did in this instance to be labeled a bad guy.

If one had been involved in the original facebook post, it would have been seen that Jim was almost bragging about having a "Florida Locale". He stated originally that they were found a good distance away from his facility, then it turns out that he was actually finding them on his land due to repeated years of escapees.

At what point will he bring these onto the market and they end up sold to some unsuspecting person as a pure paradalis locale? There are already enough issues in paradalis breeding due to dishonest people selling females that are a different locale than they were advertised as.

Originally Posted by rds040800

At what point will he bring these onto the market and they end up sold to some unsuspecting person as a pure paradalis locale?

Maybe at no point. Making up possible future bad actions to bolster a bad guy thread is lame IMHO.

Originally Posted by Lucille

Maybe at no point. Making up possible future bad actions to bolster a bad guy thread is lame IMHO.

I am sure there are already some out there, as the guy has had may issues of selling crosses stated as pure locales. When you put 4 female chameleons in the same enclosure, how do you know what eggs belong to which female? And my comment was more the fact of him using the "florida locale" as a marketing gimminc, which is where the original FB post was going when everything coming out about his animals escaping before he deleted it.

It is interesting in itself that paradalis are able to survive in Florida, but it does not suprise me. The impact of chameleons on the Florida ecosystem will not be known for many years. It took a few decades before pythons were considered an issue in Florida, as there is info showing them to have been there for a while, possibly as far back as during Veitnam. There are wild populations of tegus and monitors in Florida also, which will likely be another victim of some form of legislation to restrict them due to their thriving presence in Florida.

Originally Posted by rds040800

as the guy has had may issues of selling crosses stated as pure locales.

Could you please back up your assertion with some proof? Ads, emails, that sort of thing.