MARK MILLER IS A THIEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by raybueno

Well Sam I guess we can agree to disagree.

Fair enough....

Sam,

I would also tell you from your statement that you do not know me at all. There is nothing I would not do to help a friend. I considered Mark a friend. I/we were going to take care of him for his efforts but he did not give us the opportunity/

As far as grred goes you couldn't be further from the truth. I/we would be just as upset over normal boas, this is about the principle.

As far as me calling them names I agree with you it is childish. I have no excuse for that. So to thsoe people I apologize. I could only ask that you put yorself in my shoes for a second.

For all you people still questioning Mark, ask him for a pic of MY dead Blood boa male I gave him $6500 for. It died in his posession after he asked for it to be sent back and i dont even know if it died??? I dont know who Ray is referring to, but every snake Mark promised me as compensation wound up at a large breeder/cage builders house. I am not saying he is a bad guy, but he did know about my situation with Mark when he acquired all those animals. I think that was pretty crappy on his part. He didnt owe me anything, but he certainly didnt help the situation at all.

I take it those of you who have decided that I have some defective brain cells missed the part of my post that said that I think Mark was in the wrong for not talking to owners about him breeding their two snakes together before he actually did it. Oh and the part where I said that I didn't think there is a clear and concise right and wrong here. The only thing I think that would convict him in a court of law is that he made the choice to breed the snakes before consulting the owner of the animals.

A few years ago in a town not to far from Kansas City, a horse breeder had a couple of horses he was boarding for a client, one male and one female. He was to breed the clients' mare with one of his stallions and the baby was to be co-owned by the two adult horse owners. To make a long story short the clients' horses got together due to a break in the fence that they were be separated by and the mare was bred to the clients stallion. The client was unwilling to award the caregiver half of ownership of the colt, so a lawsuit was filed and the court awarded 50% of the sale of the colt to the caregiver since he was responsible for caring and maintaining the mare during the pregnancy. The caregiver didn't intend for the breeding to take place, but never the less it did and they did care for the mare during the pregnancy, and the colt after delivery. This was the decision in this case, as mentioned before I think the only thing that would make this not the case here was that Mark willingly bred them with out the consultation of the owners of the boas. But that would be for a judge to decide, what we think and what the court thinks isn't always the same.

Now to those who have opinions of my braincells, I'm not siding with anyone here because believe it or not this is not a court of law, just a forum built to warn others of bad dealings with breeders in this hobby we all love. Because it is not a court I have reason to believe that sometimes not all of the facts are stated to make one's case seem more credible. I am not saying that is the case here, but in happens in person why wouldn't it happen on here?

Originally Posted by raybueno

Sam,

I would also tell you from your statement that you do not know me at all. There is nothing I would not do to help a friend. I considered Mark a friend. I/we were going to take care of him for his efforts but he did not give us the opportunity/

As far as grred goes you couldn't be further from the truth. I/we would be just as upset over normal boas, this is about the principle.

As far as me calling them names I agree with you it is childish. I have no excuse for that. So to thsoe people I apologize. I could only ask that you put yorself in my shoes for a second.

Jason,

I think you should read the above statement. As to the horse breeding that is completly different. They bred on accident. Mark bred my animals on purpose without my permission. Completly different.

Jason, the reason why most are probably questioning your reasoning ability is due not to your braincells but your lack of a spine. True friends and people with integrity, will hold their friends accountable for their actions. You seem to want to make up excuses and stories to justify what might have been simply so you don't have to hold Mark's feet to the fire.

I can understand giving the benefit of the doubt to someone after one possible deal gone bad. But, it's been documented time and time again that Mark is a crook yet you still don't want to hold him accountable. Simply stating that he "should have done this" or he "should not have done that" is not the same as telling him he's being an ass and to help get him straightened out. I have a sneaky suspicion that you know more of the background information pertaining to some of these deals then what you're letting on. It's a gut intuition and probably has as much to do with you desire to defend vs your desire to help. I'm probably not the only one in that boat that feels this way.

I still find it amusing, if not intriguing, that you're so willing to speak up for Mark when he won't do the same. At some point Jason, you have to decide if your "friendship" is really worth the loss in integrity.

Griz

Well said, Bob. I agree completely.

I have a sneaky suspicion that you know more of the background information pertaining to some of these deals then what you're letting on.

Again, agreed. Remember, Jason and Mark talked about this thread and this situation at the show last Saturday.
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Jason, as pointed out the horse breeding suit is totally irrelevent, due to that breeding being an accident. Both horses were also boarded full-time at that stable. Mark was only temporarily "boarding" for the explicit purpose of breeding two specific animals named in the contract. They did not "accidently" get together. He PUT them together, in total disregard to the contract HE signed and in total disregard to the wishes of the owner of the female.

The only thing I think that would convict him in a court of law is that he made the choice to breed the snakes before consulting the owner of the animals.

And therefore is not entitled to keep any of the offspring of that breeding. He may be entitled to monetary compensation for feeding the female during pregnancy (as Ray had already advised him), but even then he may have forfeited that entitlement since he voluntarily took on that responsibility in anticipation of a bigger pay-back. Unethical and greedy.
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I'm not siding with anyone here because believe it or not this is not a court of law, just a forum built to warn others of bad dealings with breeders in this hobby we all love.

Yes, you are correct. This is not a court of law. However, you came here giving your own assumption of the law & clearly siding with Mark, saying:
"since he has had ownership since they were born and if he sells them before any judge makes a decision then they by law are his animals. Possession is how many tenths of the law?"

Wrong. That old saying "possession is 9/10ths of the law" is just that .. an old adage. It is not a rule of law since since legal ownership requires both the right to possess as well as actual or constructive possession.

And Ray did exactly what this forum is intended for, just as you stated, "to warn others of bad dealings with breeders.."

Jason, You said in an earlier post that there are two sides to a story. You also said you have spoken to Mark about the issue at hand. Was his side of the story so compelling that you felt you must post here to defend him? If he convinced you that what he did was right, why would he not post his side here? Obviously he has enough evidence to convince you that he is in the right. All he did wrong was not ask permission right? I don't believe you have defective brain cells. I think anyone who posts here has enough to rub together to form an opion on stuff. If you can be swayed, couldn't the rest of us? All he has to do is come here and share the side he shared with you. Even if he didn't convince anyone that he was right, at least some would start to think he might have a spine.
Mark is a big boy. He can handle himself here. So...Why hasn't he?

opinion*

Jason, I'm Sorry. I am not asking you those questions expecting you to answer for Mark. That isn't my intent at all. You can't know the answers unless MArk has told you the answer.
What I would like thoough is for you to ask yourself for those answers, and if the answer you have for yourself is "I don't know", ask yourself one more..."Why am I fighting his battle without knowing why he isn't willing to do so?"