Reptile Trade Organization

Thread Started Here

This is to continue a discussion on the pros and cons of a reptile trade/watchdog organization. The link above leads to where the discussion started (but it turned into a general discussion instead of a BOI discussion).

Charles,

I think your intentions are 100% admirable but I think the practicality of policing a hobby industry limits the end result.

But you've made a good point, Daniel. It does require money, but I don't really see it being taken out on customers, by charging them more for their animals or supplies. That would be like a 711 saying "hey we're going to charge .20 cents more per item for a donation to hospice attic" or something. That's kind of a forced way to do business, even if the customer doesn't know it.

All business pass on any type of fee to the customer whether it be a business license, trade organization dues, or even donations. Any fee would hit the backyard breeder the hardest because they don't turn the volume to absorb the costs as easily.

While policing pet stores is semi-practical most scammers are not pet stores (personal opinion). The scammers won't usually invest that much time and effort into building a store front (either real or internet) to run their games. Easy to disolve and low overhead are what they do best.

I'm continueally (sp?) amazed at how close knit this industry is. Word of mouth can make or break you quickly. With online tools that are time sensitive like the BOI we are able to spread that word of mouth faster.

Charles, not to piss in your cornflakes, so to speak but, what is your experiance in the reptile world? How is it that you are telling pet shops to do it your way or you'll report them to everyone.

Now you may have a bunch of breeding and keeping experiance in which case you're entitled to your opinion however, if you're relatively new to this, especially the business end of it, not to mention the long term, as in years, keeping and breeding, just what makes you the go to guy on this?

Your ideas are good in THEORY. However, proving out that theory is pretty much impossible. I seriously doubt you'll get the funding needed to run it. That's just being realistic. I had a reptile shop for years and have dealt with others for many years. Cheap bastards one and all comes to mind. Not necessarily in a bad way, as some of these guys are good guys but, none that I know want to spend 17.50 on a bitchin guarenteed to live albino corn from a private breeder when they can get the same animal from a wholesaler for 12.50 and when it dies get a credit for next time.

Good luck but check the wind direction, I hate it when it blows back in my face and I'm sure you do too.

Wes Pollock

I've been into reptiles for over 19 years. I have been a small-time reptile seller in the past, but don't do that right now, because, as you know, it's hard for a small business in reptiles to make money (competition, expenses) but I still keep a variety of reptiles, both venomous and non-venomous, and have dealt with a lot of petshops and private keepers locally.

I have over 1400 volunteer hours documented by the Florida wildlife conservation commission dealing with venomous snakes.

I also have run Exotic Animal Conservation Efforts, a small, informational and reptile rescue organization locally here, usually removing and relocating ratsnakes and racers as I get calls, as well as rehabbing injured reptiles, from black racers to timber rattlers.

Well I am certainly glad you're not some know nothing know it all.

Whew. They, the know it alls, used to come in to my shop all the time. They would have gotten their first snake or lizard two weeks prior from the mall petshop and instantly become experts in all things reptile casue that's what "the guy where I bought my snake" told me. And yup, sure enough, though I never knew it, there are lots of kingsnakes that eat crickets.

Anyway, I do wish you the best in your endevour.

Wes Pollock

Have you all looked at the new PIJAC proposal? It sounds like they are attempting to something along these lines.

I have to say, as much as I am discouraged by the amount of scam artists or just bad business people that seem to be in this business, I cringe at the idea of regulation as I see how it can have the adverse effects in many regions. Look at the new vet certificate law that may be enforced in certain states now. This law could basically weed all of the small quality breeders out of selling in these states due to financial burden of obtaining $20 individual certificates for every animal sold. I know it is different, but it is just a taste for me of reptile industry bad attempts at regulation. Good intentions, bad results.

Unfortunately, there are scammers in every business. Thank goodness for websites like this and others that "self police" in a way.

Dana

I currently work in a pet store in georgia. GA has a law that all animals being imported into the state must have a vet health certificate. Now, how in the heck that some of these animals obtain this certificate are beyond me. I have had SEVERAL reptiles arrive with their health certificate and these poor things were covered in abcesses or had severe mouth rot. As a result of this, I take health certificates with a grain of salt.

My point exactly. The vet certificate only makes it difficult for small breeders. Most large importers/dealers/breeders can probably cut a deal with their vet to have them issue large numbers of these certificates to go out with animals.
Besides the fact a vet certificate tells nothing--it is a basic visual inspection from what I can tell. No tests, fecals, etc. Although I think this depends on the vet. I know vets that are against signing their name off on any animal without a number of tests--that is the right thing to do in my opinion, but do you know how much that costs!!! And what if it is just for a $20 animal.

I simply do not want to see this copied in other types of regulations that make no sense and just discourage people trying to buy and sell quality animals as pets. All this does is create an open market for the dealers with financial backing. Many of which as you illustrated, can just get the piece of paper and ship out anything they want.

And who's job is it to know all these regulations. I did not know that I was supposed to have a certificate before shipping to GA. How are we supposed to keep track of these ever changing laws in states, cities, townships, etc ... and what are the penalties?

The PIJAC proposal is not mandatory or policed--it is more of a self policing policy that I think was what this thread was leaning toward--I could be wrong.
There is certainly no easy answer.

Dana

I'm not sure about GA law, but some health certificates (like the ones for sulcata tortoises) only mean they've been checked for harmful ticks. It doesn't really mean the animals are healthy. I think it's kinda misleading in that sense. It's only going to be minimum required by law.

If the minimum is so inconsequential as a mere check for ticks, what's the point in having one at all?

No, I just don't see this flying on its own with a lot of the little retail shops or with a lot of the private breeders out there.

As much as I think those with experiance should do all they can to help newbies, there is only so much you should be expected to do and above and beyond selling healthy reptiles and amphibians, represented EXACTLY as what they are, I don't see much to be desired that is attainable in a reasonable fashion.

At some point the newbie must be responsible for his/her own actions and if they do not do the proper checks or have the proper knowledge then it is, ultimately on them if they make a mistake.

There are now several other sites offering variations of this, the original BOI and that trend will doubtless continue as more and more people see the benifits, as well as traffic, it generates to the sites involved.

Hopefully there will come a time when any newbie will know that there is a place he can go and find out not only what is necessary to keep the critter that has caught his fancy but, to find reputable sellers to buy said critter from as well as the scumbags to avoid. I think this is more reasonable as well as more realistic as far as bieng able to be accomplished by the herping community at large.

Wes Pollock

From what I gather of what I've read about the PIJAC/NRIP thing, Dana, is that it's a group of breeders working with the dept of agriculture, trying to set non-mandatory standards of handling and transport, to reduce the risk of spreading ticks and deseases from the reptiles. The only reason I could see doing this is to keep people in higher places from making new, tougher regulations. It either means they know something I don't (which wouldn't be the first time lol), or they're just doing it as a precautionary method.

Either way, I'm glad to see that it is a group of people who care for reptiles and the protection of them as personal pets and not some other organizations that are trying to ban them. I can't say much else about them, until we hear more about it.

Anyway, it seems that all new things seem bad at first, whether it's a new politician coming to office (or an old one being re-elected lol), taxes, new laws and regulations, etc.

On another note, regarding "At some point the newbie must be responsible for his/her own actions and if they do not do the proper checks or have the proper knowledge then it is, ultimately on them if they make a mistake"

I agree with that 100%. When I bought my first Iguana from a petshop, they did give me a caresheet with it. It basically said to house it in an aquarium, put 1 dome light for heat on it, and feed it only kale. Obviously, it was a caresheet that the petshop made itself - maybe they knew the proper care and didn't want to sway people from buying these cheap pets, because of their more expensive housing and dietary needs, or they may not have known the proper care themselves. Regardless, that's no excuse.

Now days, we've atleast got some pretty good information on the internet, but there are still a few people, even though on the net, that just don't know how to find the right information, or they just don't know it's there at all. These people, if they buy reptiles, most likely use the petshops themselves for information. Therefore, petshops are the frontrunners if you will, for future reptile enthusiasts (aka reptile newbies, as you call them.)

I don't think anyone wants to learn how to properly keep a reptile by having one (or more) die before its time.

While it may not be a law for petshops to raise their customer's animals for them, it should be their responsability to give them correct information to get started. I do, however, know that you can't make someone buy a care guide, a properly-sized cage, uvb lighting, calcium and vitamin supplements, and proper food for a $9 petshop iguana that a customer may not want to buy, but you can tell that customer that your guarantee (if there is one) on the animal will be void if he or she doesn't purchase the right housing equipment and supplements with it, and even make them sign a waiver.

Regarding: "If the minimum is so inconsequential as a mere check for ticks, what's the point in having one at all?"

Another good point. Sulcata tortoises were found to carry a certain tick which was imported from Africa. Now that sulcatas aren't imported any more (legally), I, personally, don't see why. My only guess is that they fear that sulcata tortoises that were imported before the law was written could still carry and spread them to their offspring, which seems unlikely, or it could be to keep from spreading some of the harmful North American ticks.

I suppose it could be about money, but the $2.60, minus expenses per health certificate the state actually gets (Florida, not sure about other states) doesn't sound like it would be worth the bother. By the time it reaches the vet and then to the dealer, it ends up being $20+ more per animal for the buyer. Luckily, there are some exceptions to these laws, depending on where you live and where you're buying them from.

One last possability is that it could just be an outdated law that has lingered around longer than needed. The only real answers I can give you about why they still do it are what ifs, maybes, and what the regulations say. I know it doesn't help much, but it might make you wonder.