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General Herp Talk Can't figure out where to post down in the other discussion forums? Too many options and too complicated? Well post your herp related messages here and to heck with it.

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Old 02-27-2004, 07:17 PM   #1
tknetman
Carryover from a thread about chams going off-topic...

The thread this was on was going way off topic, so this looked like a more appropriate place for it. If you don't care, please forgive the intrusion.


Quote:
What kind of chameleons did you buy? Are they CB? Are you planning on breeding them?
One pair of CB 2003 panthers and a pair of CB 2003 veilds. Until he moves the links on his page, they're the first two links here:

N. Gubitz chameleons

I will make every attempt to breed them. I'm in Massachusetts, so if they need a wintering-over period I'm out of luck. My only winter temp choices are 75 and 20.

Tom Kincaid
 
Old 02-27-2004, 07:32 PM   #2
Neil Gubitz
TO SEE WHAT I'VE SOLD!!

If any of you want to see the animals that I have sold.... all you have to do it go to the, "Animals Sold Since 02/01/03" link on the left hand column of my Website.... just click on the name and see the picture....

Neil
 
Old 02-27-2004, 08:17 PM   #3
The BoidSmith
Tom I will have to say they look nice indeed. Do you happen to know who bred the panthers? I'm getting into "lizards" myself but starting slowly. Right now I have only cresteds.

Regards.
 
Old 02-27-2004, 08:22 PM   #4
tknetman
Quote:
Originally posted by alvaro
Do you happen to know who bred the panthers?
I don't, but now that they're sold perhaps Neil will enlighten us as to the breeder. Whaddaya say Neil?
 
Old 02-27-2004, 08:34 PM   #5
tknetman
Arrow More pics from Neil

A few more pics he sent me while we were negotiating in case anyone is curious... I'll be taking more pics once they have a chance to adjust to their new habitat.

Pic1 Pic2
Pic3
 
Old 02-27-2004, 09:32 PM   #6
Neil Gubitz
The Panthers were sold to me by LLL as a 1.1 pair.... when they grew up, I was informed that they were 0.2 (as they're very hard to sex correctly).... I did a trade of one of my females for a Male by a guy who had the exact opposite happen to him.... he was sold a 1.1 pair (I don't know who he bought his from, he didn't remember, but he DID remember it WASN'T LLL) and they turned out to be 2.0....

The Veils were sold to me by A1 Reptiles as babies from different parents....

Neil
 
Old 02-28-2004, 01:03 AM   #7
The BoidSmith
Well, I guess you both understand LLL Reptiles sell well established Diego Suarez panther chameleons...right?
 
Old 02-28-2004, 01:29 AM   #8
Seamus Haley
What I'm wondering is if either of the involved was aware that they could potentially have been violating Massachusetts State law...

Chameleons require a permit to own. Have you got them Tom?

Chameleons require a seperate permit to be shipped into the state. Did either of you apply for one and get it approved?

Chameleons will only recieve a permit IF they are CB and there is a notarized statement from the breeder atesting to this... Does this exist?

How were the animals sent from Florida to Massachusetts?
 
Old 02-28-2004, 01:38 AM   #9
tknetman
Quote:
Originally posted by Seamus Haley
What I'm wondering is if either of the involved was aware that they could potentially have been violating Massachusetts State law...
I was not aware that they still required a permit. I will check into that.

Thanks for the head's up!

Tom Kincaid
 
Old 02-28-2004, 03:36 AM   #10
Seamus Haley
Quote:
I was not aware that they still required a permit. I will check into that.
Have since at least '74.

And not just a single permit...

You need a permit to own the animals, a permit to breed if that's really your intention, a permit to sell any offspring unless you plan on keeping *all* of them and a permit to bring these guys into the state from an outside source.

There are sperate permits for individual animals in most cases... you can get a general permit for a species, but this is not as easy to do. The permits are good for a calender year, with all permits expiring on December thirty first, every year, regardless of when they were obtained.

You have to fill out a number of forms and submit detailed information about how you will be housing the animals... You also need to supply proof that they were captive bred, which it sounds like these might not be.

If they're shipped into the state without labeling them, it's also a violation of the Lacey act.



Thing here is... it's a stupid law. But it is the law... as a responsible, law abiding, permit holding herper in Massachusetts I feel the only way to change said law is by OBEYING it and establishing a degree of credibility for the industry before proposing changes to the legislation. As such is my continued position on the matter, I would feel obligated to report any illegal shipment or ownership of species which are prohibited to the appropriate law enforcement agencies. I hope I am making myself VERY clear on this point, so as to prevent any misunderstanding.

The fact that Neil would ship prohibited animals into an area where they are illegal to own without a permit... especially animals which wouldn't meet the permit guidelines anyway (As I said earlier, proof of captive production is required, as at least one of the breeders is unknown, this would be impossible) simply says something about his character and business ethics... And the lack thereof.

The fact that you were unaware that they required the permits functions as sufficient logical evidence that you do not have those which are needed. I would suggest very strongly that, if the animals have already been shipped, you quietly and discreetly move them into a state where their ownership is legal... If they haven't, you might want to request a refund.

I would also suggest that Neil do a bit more reasearch on the animals he's selling, and double check their legality prior to shipping... This could potentially come back on HIM in the form of fines and potential jail time (As the shipper) as far as Massachusetts is concerned, especially if he directly circumvented the Lacey act in order to avoid detection.
 

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