In need of opinions...

I am just asking this to get opinions from other Beardie keepers(and herp keepers in general I guess).

Recently, I lost all three of my bearded dragons over a 48 hour period. They had no prior indications of being ill in any way. They were growing at an awesome pace(from 4-9 inches in a 3 month period). They were all eating machines as most healthy beardies are. All three were drinking well and never had any adhered sheds like seen on many beardeds. They ate crickets, mealworms, meal beetles, and veggies like they were going out of style. Temperatures were optimum. ALWAYS defecated in well formed dark stools without fail...and with frequency as most beardies do. lol

Now here's the problem. I bought a new box of 6000 mealworms. I fed out the mealies to most of my insect eaters after receiving them and getting them gut-loaded for 24 hours per my normal procedure. The beardies of course went nuts as usual(as did all of my other insectivores) and gobbled them up. Well, the next morning when I went to spray them, one was not looking all that great. Very listless and its eyes were sunken in as if he hadn't had water for a month. He was dead within an hour of his discovery. I pulled the others out of the cage as they were looking alright still. Their cage and furniture were thoroughly disinfected and scrubbed down, aired out, scrubbed down again, and the others were returned to their cage(didn't have other housing open for them at the time). I watched them until I went to bed and they were doing fine. The next morning, another was dead and the third was looking as horrible as the first one I found dead and he died within a couple minutes of my finding him.

Now, just so you know, I fed out mealies from the same batch to just about everything else that would eat them including leopard geckos, Rhacodactylus geckos, Uroplatus, some turtles, and my Red-eye Tree Frog. None of them showed or displayed ANY problems after feeding on the mealies and still haven't to this day(this was back in November). So I'm pretty sure there weren't any contaminants as my other animals would likely have dropped dead as well. And whatever it was, it hit VERY fast.

Any ideas? NEver heard of or seen it past a month old, but do beardies suffer from SIDS?

Rob, I don't think the mealies did it either, that quick and no other symptoms sounds viral, especially with the other reptiles eating the same thing. Off chance something that the mealies were exposed to many only affect beardies is slim.

Had you been to any shows in the previous 2 weeks prior to this happening? added any new animals to your collections? or anyone handled them that was not the norm? some viruses that are very sensitive to beardies, can be passed through human hands or clothes.

did you happen to save one or any tissue samples?

Sorry for your loss that had to be a hard shock

That is very scary.
The only other thing I can think of besides possibly catching the virus from a show or other animal is a hard hitting bacteria such as salmonella--or their is one other that I cannot remember the name of off hand.
I once had a dragon die all of the sudden like that after a feeding--one day bouncing around eating, fat, alert--the next day eyes sunken way in and totally listless--dead in 5 hours. It was pretty devastating. Took her in for the full pathology (luckily my vet likes to work trades for reptiles : )), and it was salmonella from the pinkie that I gave her. Now, I thought this was pretty rare and only happened due to rodents, but I was reading through the rhac forum on KS recently and I noticed that one guy there had 3 cresties die within 24 hours and didnt know what it was--he came back on after the pathology came back--salmonella and the other bacteria that I cannot remember the name of. Now, with cresties it couldnt have been from a pinkie...just makes you think a little... Basically, it worked like food poisoning and reacked havoc on the entire system--like ingesting a toxin.
dana

Rob,
Firstly, I'd like to express my sorrow and sympathy for your loss.

My thought is salmonella as well. There are so many ways to transmit that bacteria, that it's reasonable to think that's what it could have been. Many different types of foods carry deadly bacterium, salmonella being one of them. It's possible that it could have been on your hands from your own food preparation and still not be in a large enough amount to affect you, or maybe even present in the beardies food or water bowl somehow. It can even be transmitted on a untensil used to prepare the animals food or a cleaning tool like a sponge or rag used to clean their dishes or environment.

I seriously doubt it could have been the worms themselves. As you already stated, your other animals would have become sick as well.

Regardless of why it happened, it still really stinks. Again, sorry for your loss.

Laura

Thanks everyone for the ideas and kind words.

I am curious though, does salmonella really react THAT fast without warning? It's just wierd to me because I wash my hands before and after handling my animals(as EVERYONE should IMO) and there were no new animals brought into my collection at the time they died(or since). Also, nothing had changed in their environment EXCEPT this new batch of mealworms, but I doubt they alone would be a catalyst to the fast demise they suffered. They all went from perfectly fine to dead pretty much literally overnight. If you could remember the name of that other bacteria would you mind passing it along to me?

At least if they had shown some signs of illness before I would have less of a problem with them dying(it would still suck, but at least I would have known it was coming or could have fought it), but these mystery deaths are the worst.

It is actually kind of funny since I have kept and bred beardies before(but always got burned out with the sheer numbers these guys can produce), but this was my first try back in a couple years. Oh well, there's always next year, and I've still got my geckos and chondros

Hello again,

In answer to your question, yes, salmonella does act that quickly, as do the other food related forms of bacteria. I have had salmonella myself, and the effects of the bacteria showed itself within hours of transmission. Fortunately, I was able to stay afloat until it had run it's course and passed through my system. Smaller life forms (including animals and even human children can easily be killed by it). I'm running on very little sleep at the moment and can't quite think of the names of the other bacteria, but when I do, I will let you know.

Handwashing is very helpful, and I agree with you that it should be a common practice, but occasionally a bacterium can get through. Unfortunatley, without tissue/fecal samples and labratory aid, it's almost impossible to know for sure exactly what the culprit was.


Laura

chlamydia is one, there is also one that starts with a "G", but i can not locate the name.

Rob, I don't know if this helps but Dana saying what she did, got me to thinking (dangerous I know)

We have a female beardie that 5 months was healthy, active, eating great, never a problem.

One day I went to feed her and she looks terrible, ill. We gave her a bath and some water, about 2 hours later she prolapses. Rushed to the vet he treated her, she was badly dehydrated in just a few hours and she prolapsed again, so during surgery they did a gram stain from her intestines.... salmonella and the other one that starts with a "G". treated with Cipro and she recovered, but it was real touch and go there for 48 hours, and I think only the skills of the Vet kept her alive.

The only thing different to her since she had been to the vet with fecals prior to this and clear, was she was given small super worms the previous day for the first time. Now in hindsight I see this was stupid, but I was thinking the chitin in the superworms caused the prolapse. But reading more and thinking back to what the Vet said. It was the gram neg bacteria that caused the prolapse but I never questioned where that came from, could it have been the super worms?

Other beardies and geckos were also given the same that day. They had no problem, but we know she was clear just a few weeks prior to this and in no contact with other reptiles.

Very Scary!

Cheri,

that situation is very similar to what mine was regarding the mealworms. Everything else had been offered them, but only the beardies had a bad reaction. Some of the geckos that got the mealworms were much smaller than the beardeds, so I figure if it would attack small immune systems, they would have been first to go, but they are still going strong.
Perhaps it is just the poor genetics and reduced immune ability of the US bearded bloodlines rearing their ugly heads again. Who knows?

But thanks everyone for the kind words and info.

Klebsiella was the name of the bacteria along with salmonella that the guy on the rhac forum stated--wasnt what I was thinking of which started with an e or a g I think. But, yes, that hard hitting. This was a huge fat 4 year old dragon. The only immune issue that might have been going on was that it was at the end of a breeding season and she tended to produce a lot of eggs. But, she was old school, no-name blood--ie hardy as heck and not inbred (or all that colorful), so I dont think it was genetics. From what the vet said, it is just a hard hitting, food poisoning or toxic like reaction. I did the gross necropsy and I can tell you that her insides had turned to complete mush in no time flat. I thought it was a toxin, but I was baffled and had the vet send away for the full pathology. Salmonella.

I'm real sorry Rob--it is a harsh way to see them go. Like I said, I was shocked when one day this girl was as healthy as can be, the next dead and totally sucked in.
I have no theories on the whole worm thing, but I wonder...thinking about what worms and crickets are fed before we get them, any food old or molding....????? Thanks, now what is left that I can feed my lizards without being paranoid!!!!!

dana

thinking about what worms and crickets are fed before we get them, any food old or molding....????? Thanks, now what is left that I can feed my lizards without being paranoid!!!!!

I agree!

After a nightmare round of coccidia that was really hard to get rid of, I now make sure we have crickets 1-2 weeks before fed to the reptiles, feed them only dry food and sponges that are boiled daily and fresh water in them for fluid. I do add some fresh squash, carrots etc to them the day before being fed to the reptiles, but even those are kept in a separate bin and cleaned out daily. NO papers or anything in the cricket tanks but some egg cartons changed out often. Only if the crickets have little die off do I use them.

We had a massive die off on the gel cricket drink with calcium. I have throw out entire lots of thousands of crickets when they are dying off after arrival for no reason.

I really never thought about the meal or super worms being a possible source of a problem.

I think rob may have hit it on the head when he said poor genetics and reduced immune ability of the US bearded bloodlines rearing their ugly heads again, this gene pool is very limited and we are seeing many things in them that in the past were not common. Sometimes I think we know so little and am afraid we may be making a lot of the problems for them when our intentions are the best for them.

The German Giant line does seem more resistant, but can someone help me out here, I thought that was one of the first introduced into the US and breed? If thats the case, shouldn't we be seeing more problems there than less?

Dana.. I know you have a lot of experience with these, can you fill in the background some?