Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

I have not written to the board of inquiry before, however secondary to the egregious nature of this event, i felt it necessary to notify the community of us who love reptiles, especially tortoises. I entered into a deal with Mr. Hermes where I would trade him my 6 inch endoscoped stud book registered Bill Zovickian female radiated tortoise and $1000 for his 12 inch male. I sent him the money upfront, and we both shipped our tortoises on March 18th. I shipped mine via "ship your reptiles" paid extra for insurance, and the tortoise arrived as promised at just before 10am the following day Tuesday alive and well according to the email Mr. Hermes sent me. The tortoise Mr. Hermes sent me arrived on Wednesday March 20th at 5 pm, DEAD. The tortoise arrived in an unvented box, which upon opening, contained another unvented box with the bottom broken out. This inner box was IN A TIED CLOSED PLASTIC BAG. I do not know who is responsible for this, either him for packaging this beautiful animal inappropriately or UPS. I have been miserable about this since the day it happened. I notified Mr. Hermes immediately and sent pictures. Upon telling him that the tortoise was dead, he told me he needed 24 hrs to figure out what to do, that actually it was more complicated in that the tortoise he advertised was not his, it was owned by a third party. I had no knowledge of the third party until this time. I asked him to send me my tortoise back and my $1000. He said he could not because he did not have either as the male wasn't his. I asked him for the contact info of the person who had my tortoise/money, he would not give it to me. I asked him to refund the value of the tortoise he sent me ($3200), he said that he could not and that the terms on his website said that live arrival was guaranteed unless there was a delay in the shipping. At this point I have no other choice but to join Mr. Hermes and UPS in a small claims lawsuit over the matter. I will not be doing business with him/Arizona Tortoise Compound ever again. Likewise, i will never ship anything via UPS again. Erik R. Lacy, MD

Post those pics.......post anything you can. That will strengthen your case. Also contact him and send him a link here. Do that on all BOIs your involved in. Tortoise forum and so on. But as for here...please post any pics and emails or texts. And lets hope he comes on and tells his side.

Has anything happened? This doesn't sound like Tortoise Compound.

No. Only that they were sorry and offerred to send me a few hundred dollars, far less than the loss incurred.

Posting the email chain may be useful.

Who actually shipped the tortoise to you? Was it shipped by Andrew to you or was this other party referred to the actual shipper of the DOA animal? If events are as described, I am wondering if this other party was inexperienced and read or was told of a bag's utility in the way I might use a sock or a pillow case (some use some other manner of air-permeable sack) to restrain a tortoise for safe shipment and that perhaps this misunderstanding resulted in the poor animal's asphyxiation. In any case, more information is needed to gain a more thorough understanding of this unfortunate state of affairs.

I have bought from ATC/Andrew before to perfectly fine effect. I have also sold to Andrew before to perfectly fine effect.

It is sad to read about the death of such an animal and I hope everything gets worked out in time.

The tortoise was shipped from the Arizona Tortoise Compound. I was not aware of a third party involvement until I notified Andrew that the tortoise arrived dead.

Did you link him to this?

Ok, Ive been waiting to see this post for a couple weeks now. Erik Lacey made it clear to me that he was going to do so. Also before I go on with my side of the story I will post my terms and conditions that are listed on my site. These terms are agreed upon once a transaction is done. Please share my terms and conditions with EVERYONE!!! You will also find all other tortoise breeder websites will have the same info and if not more restictions then mine. I personally try my best everyday of my life and I apply that to my company and tortoises.

All tortoises and turtles that are under 4 inches in length are for export, educational, research, exhibition or zoological purposes only. They are not sold as pets.

SHIPPING AND LIVE ARRIVAL
Dry goods:
We ship via USPS using flat-rate boxes to reduce your expense. We can arrange other shipping methods on a case by case basis.

Live animals:
We use UPS next day air or Delta Dash, depending on the size of the shipment. We package each animal in an insulated cardboard box. Smaller animals are contained within the box using a deli cup, while larger animals will be secured with a reptile bag. We use heat and cold packs depending on the seasons. The boxes are clearly marked and every precaution is taken while packaging your order. We guarantee all animals to arrive alive and healthy. Live arrival is guaranteed unless caused by carrier delays or you are not home to receive the order on the first delivery attempt. Temperatures must be between 45F and 90F during entire transit. If shipped by Delta, you will need to be at the Cargo hold ready for pickup within an hour of the flight's arrival. In the unlikely event of a D.O.A. we will require a phone call within the first two hours after receiving the animal. A time/date stamped photo will also be required as proof of loss. We reserve the right to ship a replacement animal or issue a refund at our discretion. Shipping costs are non-refundable.



****WE NOW PROVIDE A 5 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ON ALL ORDERS****

(all conditions of delivery must be met for guarantee to apply)



So, a gentleman here locally asked me to sell his male Radiated tortoise for him. I said no problem, he also sells me hatchlings from time to time at wholesale so I thought I could return a favor to him. He wanted 2900 dollars for the male, so I posted it for 3200 plus shipping. I had a few people interested in the male and I got an email from Erik saying he would like to trade a 6 inch female for the male. I said it couldnt hurt to send photos but I didnt think it would work out. So he sent the photos. I contacted the guy I will call " the Radiated breeder" I told him that a guy wants to trade. I forwarded the pics and the Radiated breeder said he would do the trade but would want 1000 cash on top. So I sent Erik the email saying that I could do the trade but would need a grand on top. Couple days pass. Erik emailed back and said lets do it. He call me, I gave him the info on where to send the check and we both talked about shipping. He didnt want to drive to the airport to receive the male Radiated like I suggested. Thats ok, he had to work that day and airport was too far away. So I booked the shipment through UPS instead. I have used UPS for a couple year and felt fine since it was going to CA from AZ. Not a far trip and weather in both states were great and no heat packs were needed. So we both agreed to ship on Monday at the same time. So I got the check from Erik, waited a couple days for it to cleared and I got the cash out from the bank. I called Radiated breeder said, I got the cash we are a go for shipping on Monday. We met up, he gave me the male Radiated and I gave him the 1000 dollars. He asked how much money I wanted out of the deal for my time. I told him no worries I didnt need any cash and it was a favor from me to him. He was happy and made me take 30 dollars for my gas. I said thank you and took it. Monday came, Erik and I both shipped and provided each other with the tracking numbers. I tracked my package I saw it was on time for 1030am delivery. It showed up at 1015 am. I called the Radiated breeder and said she was here and looked good. I thought he would be happy with the trade and cash. I met up with him and gave him the tortoise. Later that day at 515 pm, Erik calls and says the male never showed. I said did you track it, where is it, tell me what you know and Ill call UPS and light a fire under their asses (its a live animal). So I called UPS, they said it was too late in the day for them to do anything, they said they mis picked the package and it would get to Erik the following day. I argued for awile and they said they could only hold the package at the UPS hub for Erik to pick up first thing in the morning at 6 or 7 am. I said hold please let me call Erik and ask him what he would like to do. Erik said to just have them leave it on the truck for Wednesday receiving. He made it very clear he didnt want to go pick it up. I assume he had to work. I called UPS back and told them ok just send tomorrrow on the truck. So Wednesday came the Radiated breeder was actually at my location when Erik calls again at 530pm on Wednesday. Erik screams the tortoise is dead. My jaw dropped , I put the phone on speaker phone since the Radiated Breeder was next to me. I told Erik, say that again. So Erik said again said that the tortoise was dead. I asked him to give me more details. He said, how did you ship this thing. I said I shipped it in a 12x12x10 card board box and the box was lined with styrofoam. I put labels on all four side walls saying ATC- Live animals. The label was on top of the box and I used hey for the bedding on the inside.
Erik said that the driver dropped the package off at 515pm in a huge cardboard box with a ATC label on the top. He said he opened the first box, looked inside and saw another box that was wrapped tight in a plastic bag. He said he openned the plastic bag and pulled out my original 12x12x10 box. He opened that and the tortoise was dead. He said it looked like the tortoise suficated. He asked me in I did the two box plastic sack thing. I told him no, I sent the package in a 12x12x10 box not anything bigger, labels all around. Erik said it looked like UPS took a ATC label off the side of my 12x12x10 box, placed my package in a plastic sack and placed that in another box and re slapped my ATC label ontop of all that. The phone was silent for a bit. I told him Im very sorry, I dont know what to do. I need to call UPS and see what the hell they did. Please give me 24 hours and Ill get back with you. We hung up. I looked over to the Radiated breeder and he was pale white. He said he was going to throw up and was very upset the Radiated died. I called UPS and was on the phone forever. The radiated breeder left and went on with his day. Calling UPS and trying to talk with supervisers and employees to figure out how to fill out the claim. UPS said they would call me and Erik and let us know whats going on. I sent Erik the info and emails within the 24 hour period, I told him I dont know if UPS will cover the lost because its a live animal. He said what about insurance. I said still, in the past they never covered a live animal its in there terms. Erick said that he will sue if UPS doesnt refund the loss and if I didnt refund the lost, He also said he would post everywhere saying bad things about ATC. I sent Erik my terms and conditions. At that time I told him I did the trade to help a friend. I also told Erik I didnt have the tortoise to send back. I also asked Erik to give it a couple days to see if I can get some help out of UPS and see what the Radiated breeder says. I kept Erik posted everyday for a week- ten days. UPS finally said the they consider live animals as perishables and they do not cover the lost even if it was insured. They read me their terms and conditions over and over again. Trust me I tryed every angle to get Erik his money from UPS. I told UPS they placed a live animal in a bag and killed it. If it was a dog, PEDA would be all over this. They didnt care. So in turn I quit using UPS. I now use Fed Ex only. They say they do cover live animals.
I called the Radiated breeder and told him what UPS said. He told me if thats what yours and UPS terms and conditions state then thats what it is. He said he couldnt give the tortoise and the money back then he would be out. I said I got to do something here for Erik, he is threating me now. The radiated breeder said he would give Erik a couple hundred dollars since he feels bad about the situation. UPS refunded the 72.56 for shipping. Ive got that check here still. I havent cashed it. I emailed Erik and said all I am willing and can do is send you the 72.56 that got refunded by UPS. Also Ill send the 200 from the Radiated breeder and Ill send you 200 also. The only reason I offered the 200 was to meet what the Radiated breeder was giving to help out and also show some support to Erik.(I kinda new Erik would like me to go fuck myself, but something is better then nothing. So Erik doesnt want the 472.56 he is trying to take me to court now instead. I understand he is upset and I would be to if I was out a pile of cash. I still will give him the cash I offered him. Im only doing this to be a good person and show some support. Since he has ported this, I am taking back all the other offers I stated to him. We both have all the email and correct wordings and exact offers. He can share all the emails if he so chooses. Bottom line here is if you choose to have a tortoise placed in a box and sent to you it is of coarse at your own risk. You must read the terms and conditions of anything your purchasing. Bill Zovickian also says that in his terms and conditions although he doesnt have a site with it listed. I too purchase tortoises and have had things die due to shipper error and never received a refund. As to my site and my personal self, normally if a hatchling dies due to shipper error Ill send them another one on the house to show support. No problem eating a hundred dollars or fifty dollars. But with high end tortoises no way, I couldnt cover multiple thousand of dollars everytime a shipper drops the ball. Beware, alot of times UPS, Ship Your Reptiles and Fed Ex screw up shipments without any care. UPS being the worst!! I also told Erik that his lawsuit will not stand due to terms and conditions being listed in plain English on my site. Those terms and conditions were put in place for unforseen cases like this. Sorry for all the mispelled words in this explaination. Erik I do feel for your lost, and understand you dont care. Also now, the Radiated breeder said the female died a week after he had it. What I have learned from this all is to make my terms and conditions more clear, not use UPS EVER, Any shipments over 1000 dollars is shipped through the airlines only! Also I am not going to list others tortoises for them on my site to help them out. Now I am using Fed Ex for the smaller shipments, im still insuring them. But if they kill one and wont refund the money because its alive animal and they consider it a perishable, everyone might see my name up here again. Sure hope not. Also this is the only time I will post here on this blog refering to this. Im not about to start going back and forth with Erik causing trouble on these forums.Please everyone learn for this, breeders and customers!!!!! Let me state my terms and conditions one more time...

Andrew Hermes
Arizona Tortoise Compound!

All tortoises and turtles that are under 4 inches in length are for export, educational, research, exhibition or zoological purposes only. They are not sold as pets.

SHIPPING AND LIVE ARRIVAL
Dry goods:
We ship via USPS using flat-rate boxes to reduce your expense. We can arrange other shipping methods on a case by case basis.

Live animals:
We use UPS next day air or Delta Dash, depending on the size of the shipment. We package each animal in an insulated cardboard box. Smaller animals are contained within the box using a deli cup, while larger animals will be secured with a reptile bag. We use heat and cold packs depending on the seasons. The boxes are clearly marked and every precaution is taken while packaging your order. We guarantee all animals to arrive alive and healthy. Live arrival is guaranteed unless caused by carrier delays or you are not home to receive the order on the first delivery attempt. Temperatures must be between 45F and 90F during entire transit. If shipped by Delta, you will need to be at the Cargo hold ready for pickup within an hour of the flight's arrival. In the unlikely event of a D.O.A. we will require a phone call within the first two hours after receiving the animal. A time/date stamped photo will also be required as proof of loss. We reserve the right to ship a replacement animal or issue a refund at our discretion. Shipping costs are non-refundable.



****WE NOW PROVIDE A 5 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ON ALL ORDERS****

(all conditions of delivery must be met for guarantee to apply)

I'd recommend posting emails exchanged on both ends. In regards to a lawsuit and court, as you stated Andrew - the case won't stand due to terms being posted in plain English on the sellers site.

I've almost got my masters degree in Law and will be taking it into corporate law upon graduation. If it counts at all, those are my two cents on the law side to all this.

For all we know, had Erik accepted to pick the package up at 6am from the hub, the tortoise may have still been alive. With emails posted, this thread will have a lot more credibility, and so will your word - Andrew/Erik. If all checks out, it isn't the sellers fault but the shipping company instead.

On a side note, I will not hesitate to do business with ATC in the future, as I have been looking into it for quite a few months.

This is an unfortunate situation for all involved, especially the tortoise.

I would like to add that I purchased a baby russian tortoise from Andrew in May 2012. Packaging was excellent, communication with Andrew prior to shipping was great and he was available to speak with on the phone, and I am a happy customer of Arizona Tortoise Compound.

That being said, I hope the buyer is able to persue something further with the shipping company in hopes of recouping some of his losses from their lack of care in delivering the tortoise safely. Also, why didn't the buyer care enough to drive to pick up the tortoise once he was told that it was at the hub and he could come by as early as 6 or 7am? The original box may not have been put into the plastic bag and re-boxed if they knew that the buyer was picking it up in the morning. I would have been waiting for their doors to open in the morning.