Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

Once I took possition of the Radiated from the breeder and gave him the 1000 cash, it was mine. I never said it wasnt and I didnt brake Federal Laws Drew! I have all permits in order.

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

Of coarse a tortoise will pee in the shipping box. After 2 days the bottom of the box doesnt hold and will leak. UPS will bag a leaking box. The package was shipped Priority over night.That is what happened.

As to everyone that is telling me to make it right. I offered Erik money and tortoises for life at cost!!! At cost means if I hatch them then it would be free.
Andrew Hermes
Arizona Tortoise Compound

1) If there is a risk of the animal defecating/urinating and that compromises the integrity of the box, then the choice of shipping container needs to be revised. e.g. not polystyrene sheets in a cardboard box, but a 1 piece polybox with lid inside a cardboard box, or a wooden shipping crate. More expensive, but the small extra cost could have saved this tortoises life.

2) I commend your for offering the refund and also tortoise for life, free if you produced it. Assuming that you follow through with this and do not say that you did not produce animals you did in order to get out of shipping a tortoise, and assuming you actually produce reasonable numbers of animals to select from, then I see this as a reasonable solution from you. If the buyer knew the animals was not yours, but you were simply brokering it, then that is sadly a risk. But, as broker, you are doing the right thing here to make the deal right as much as you can. $475 along would not, but $2800 in credit plus the money, or $3200 in credit does.

Of course, there is still the CBW permit issue, but we have nothing to comment on that as to whether you both have that.

I hope this does two things. 1) Stop you using UPS, and 2) Stops you brokering animals. Both appear to potentially end in a lot of stress for you.

Warren

Andrew you may want to read the regulation you can not use your permit to ship for another individual. If all permits are in order the "radiated breeder" should have a C.B.W and so should the receiver and yourself.
Respectfully,
Drew Rheinhardt
Co-director Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

Here is a list of other companies with the same terms and conditions as Arizona Tortoise Compound..... ETC ETC.

Andrew Hermes
Arizona Tortoise Compound

Tom wanted me to post your emails to him to show your true colors, but we think they will come out shining here in the next couple posts. So we will be patient before we post your 'laughable threats.' lol! Hopefully you learn here...

Originally Posted by NIGRO51

That might be the stupidest thing I read all day. You clearly quoted me wrong and when I politely correct you that is what you had to say?! Next time you address me I will eat the infraction to voice what I think of you.

Go for what you know then, your threat is weak... Tom wanted me to tell you to take your issue up with him, IF, you are big enough? Ouch!

Not sure what he meant there, but apparently he has a reason already to 'have you pegged,' as he stated it? Sorry for making the water 'muddier' than it already was for you.

Originally Posted by Drew R

Andrew you may want to read the regulation you can not use your permit to ship for another individual. If all permits are in order the "radiated breeder" should have a C.B.W and so should the receiver and yourself.
Respectfully,
Drew Rheinhardt
Co-director Turtle and Tortoise Preservation Group

So, Andrew and Erik, have we got these? (Award winner for best posts in thread Drew! Nice stuff!)

Exactly Drew. The tortoise, once in my possession, it was mine and not the breeders. Plain and simply. I never tried to pass the buck and say I didnt own it once I took possession of it. I do not cover shipper errors, weather or acts of god. I went above and beyond what I needed to do to help out Erik. Bob contacted me yeasterday and wants me to sell his adult male Radiated and I told him no way. Warren I am not using UPS ever again and not brokering to help a friend from now on. Now I use Fed Ex, Southwest airlines and delta, they say they will stay true to the insurance I put on them, UPS didnt. Fed ex also said they will not put my Live animal packages in a plastic sack for any reason. The bottom line lessons to learn here is most all breeders dont cover shipping delays, UPS considers all live animals as perishables and wont pay the insurance. Asking to have a tortoise placed in a box and shipped to you is a high risk situation. Read all terms and conditions before a purchase. Also this thread was created to help the buyer. It doesnt help the person posting the complaint by others stirring the pot and mixing up the facts or actual story for him.

What a sad situation for the tortoise, honestly.... FedEx would not cover the value of the animal in this situation. From my experience, they will cover the value if the box is lost or destroyed completely (which essentially never happens) but will not guarantee that it will show up live (they don't know that it was live to begin with).

Side note, if the tortoise "became yours" when you took possession, then you shouldn't be putting the blame back on the nameless "breeder." It's clearly a very gray area of the CBW permitting law, but taking possession of a radiated and shipping it out immediately exploiting what is a major loophole I'm sure is not perfectly acceptable practice.

In my opinion, if a company is willing to ship a tortoise, knowing what that entails and the risks involved, they should be fully responsible for getting a live tortoise to the customer when (not if) FedEx or UPS messes up. If a company is ok with shipping a tortoise in December, the company assumes that responsibility. If you think it's too cold (or hot) to be safe, don't ship the tortoise.

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

Exactly Drew. The tortoise, once in my possession, it was mine and not the breeders. Plain and simply. I never tried to pass the buck and say I didnt own it once I took possession of it. I do not cover shipper errors, weather or acts of god. I went above and beyond what I needed to do to help out Erik. Bob contacted me yeasterday and wants me to sell his adult male Radiated and I told him no way. Warren I am not using UPS ever again and not brokering to help a friend from now on. Now I use Fed Ex, Southwest airlines and delta, they say they will stay true to the insurance I put on them, UPS didnt. Fed ex also said they will not put my Live animal packages in a plastic sack for any reason. The bottom line lessons to learn here is most all breeders dont cover shipping delays, UPS considers all live animals as perishables and wont pay the insurance. Asking to have a tortoise placed in a box and shipped to you is a high risk situation. Read all terms and conditions before a purchase. Also this thread was created to help the buyer. It doesnt help the person posting the complaint by others stirring the pot and mixing up the facts or actual story for him.

Andrew... Putting all the dramatic emails aside to Tom. Have you sold on eBay before? Do you know what it takes to maintain a 'positive trader rating?' Have you ever wondered what it takes to maintain a 99% feedback rating? Sometimes, you will need to overcompensate to get that 'positive feedback.'

Tom made mention to you already in your email chain. He has forwarded me all those emails, by the by, and can't respond here at this time. But... Here's the deal, you can stand your ground here, and guess what happens to all the viewers here?

When A GOOD TRADER has an issue, these days, you better OVERCOMPENSATE that buyer. Be it a $20 tip for shipping delay on a Matchbox car shipment, or $3500 in this particular case. PUT YOURSELF IN ERIK'S SHOE'S FOR MORE THAT MINUTE OR TWO.

Or, kiss them, and their friends, and family good bye as potential customers. Just as you threatened Tom with that. That was dumb of you to do that too, by the by.

Now, with all that being said, you have offered some options for Erik, that's relatively large of you. Without any nonsense, what exactly are you really offering him at this time, besides the $476 and change, that isn't right?

Erik, this is your only opportunity to get some satisfaction out of this deal. I'm shocked Andrew is making offers, so that does speak volumes for him and ATC.

I apologize to you Andrew for coming off harsh, dead animals bring negative stuff out of me these days.

Originally Posted by TylerStewart

What a sad situation for the tortoise, honestly.... FedEx would not cover the value of the animal in this situation. From my experience, they will cover the value if the box is lost or destroyed completely (which essentially never happens) but will not guarantee that it will show up live (they don't know that it was live to begin with).

Ship your reptiles will however

Side note, if the tortoise "became yours" when you took possession, then you shouldn't be putting the blame back on the nameless "breeder." It's clearly a very gray area of the CBW permitting law, but taking possession of a radiated and shipping it out immediately exploiting what is a major loophole I'm sure is not perfectly acceptable practice.

In my opinion, if a company is willing to ship a tortoise, knowing what that entails and the risks involved, they should be fully responsible for getting a live tortoise to the customer when (not if) FedEx or UPS messes up. If a company is ok with shipping a tortoise in December, the company assumes that responsibility. If you think it's too cold (or hot) to be safe, don't ship the tortoise.

Agree 100%

well put.

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

Here is a list of other companies with the same terms and conditions as Arizona Tortoise Compound..... Turtle and Tortoises.com, Florida Iguana.com, Turtle Source, Exotic Pets, Bill Zovickian, Underground reptiles, Bay Area Reptiles, Tortoise Shack, Garden State Tortoises, Cold Blooded Novelties, Carolina Pet Supply, Blue Water Reptiles, Snicker Snakes just to name a few. A few of these companies actually sponser the "Board of Inquiry".

I only found three companies that cover shipper/carrier errors. They list that info on there terms and conditions page also. Most other sites dont have terms an conditions listed. For those companies , they should since everyone likes to sue.

"Tom and I WILL NEVER let somebody purchase from you! You should refund in full! And we are die hard Tort fans. If you had an ice pack in there, the Tort would have been fine. Just like Anthony said above... they only bag and tag dead bodies! "

As to you Brandy, your confused and comment when you shouldnt, the weather was perfect, nothing to do with cold packs at all. UPS placed the box inside of a plastic sack then in another box. That is how the tortoise died. UPS mis picked the package and it was delivered a day late. UPS said they bagged it in the morning of day two.

Of coarse a tortoise will pee in the shipping box. After 2 days the bottom of the box doesnt hold and will leak. UPS will bag a leaking box. The package was shipped Priority over night.That is what happened.

Erik did alot of things wrong. He wanted a Radiated shipped to his from gate. He asked me to write on the package 'leave at gate' . He didnt want to go to the airport. He didnt make me aware of the late shipping untill 7 hours later.Tracking numbers were provided and he didnt track. He made me aware of the late shipment after UPS closed, the first day.He didnt want to go to UPS and pick up the package on day two after the delay, instead he wanted it placed on the truck for another 15 hour lag and placed at his gate. My package was not air tight and the tortoise could breath fine untill it was placed in a sack by UPS. I ship out, on an avaerage of 10-12 different orders every week. This is the first shipment that didnt arrives safe and sound. I can not control what the shipping company does with the packages once its out of my hands. I also can not control the weather. If a customer wants a tortoise shipped in the middle of December it is of coarse their risk. You want a Radiated shipped to your front gate with no signature required ,its at your own risk. You want the tortoise left on a truck for another day its your risk.


First and foremost, what a horrible event and how awful for the tortoise! I know Andrew and have had animals shipped from him on multiple occasions. There is NO WAY he put a live animal in a plastic bag. He knows what he is doing and does it well!!! Unfortunately there is always risk in shipping live animals. It is the responsiblilty of BOTH parties to agree on how best to minimize these risks.

To my knowledge, no shipper will insure live animals. Ship Your Reptiles is the only company that offers such insurance. Delta does not unconditionally guarantee live animal shipments either.

Yes Tim your 100% right. Placing animals in a box and sending them nationwide is a huge risk and the carrier doesnt cover it.

As to everyone that is telling me to make it right. I offered Erik money and tortoises for life at cost!!! At cost means if I hatch them then it would be free. Erik doesnt want that and only wanted 3k not the 472.56 and store credits for life. I didnt have to offer anything but did. As to him posting the thumbs down posts, the offers of things at cost or free is over now. I made that clear to him as well. Erik will need to provide me with his shipping info within 7 days from today's date to receive the 472.56 refund. After 7 days if Erik doesnt provide me with the shipping info for the cash then that offer is over as well . Also if Erik would share the emails, everyone would see I tried to make it right. I also will not fold because of him posting this. I feel good about the way I conduct myself and company. ATC was created to have the tortoise world feel safe about puchasing a tortoise from a reputable breeder and receive healthy tortoises without someone just stealing the money and not shipping. I can guarntee almost everything except shipper delays,weather and acts of God.

Andrew Hermes
Arizona Tortoise Compound

Andrew, Knowing that everything here is permanent and that many people are going to see this, please tell me why anyone should ever take a chance on anything shipped from you. You accept no responsibility. Also, putting a time limit on an offer as well as retracting one is just small of you.

I Will put my opinion here as others have and that is what forums are for. Both parties I am sure have the CBW permits or would not be shipping radiateds across state lines. Andrew will be in trouble for this if found out because clearly be brokered a deal for a tortoise that wasn't his as has been made clear and he was offered $300 to broker the deal.
The simple fact to me is that the tortoise would of been fine for a few days even as weather was fine were it not for fact that it was clearly I appropriately packed and shipped by seller. Assuming buyer is telling truth which he says he is and has pictures to prove so much. The tortoise was packed in a box w no air holes and sealed shut with tape. That is wrong. Further, seller got cheap and made a box with styrofoam sides and bottom that could not contain a leak. I breed and raise radiateds of course they will urinate and deaf ate in a box, more so with stress of shipping. Ups did what they always do in that circumstance. Whether or not tortoise was dead already due to a sealed box with no holes is a question that can't be answered. However, if a tortoise was shipped in a correct box w a sealed bottom like a small fish box it would of undoubtedly lived and done well.
Therefore, the tortoise did not die due to UPS delays but died as a direct consequence of incorrect packing. The seller will lose in court and this should go to court. A painful lesson for both parties. Perhaps refunding the money by court order will teach the seller to spend a few bucks and ship a $3000 tortoise in a correct box. Cutting 6 pieces of styrofoam and lining a box is not adequate. Again, not a death due to shipping delays. There is no case against UpS unfortunately, but a strong case against seller. Mistakes he made:
1. Brokering a tortoise and not disclosing it as such. A CBW violation unless original owner has permit. Probably a violation of this site. I know would be of kingsnake if he advertised there also.
2. Packing a live animal in a sealed box with no ventilation holes, this was enough to kill it.
3. Packing in a homemade styrofoam sided his w inability to contain small amount of liquid. This led to ups putting it in plastic bag and its demise if not already dead from the sealed box. CLEARLY the shipping delay had nothing to do with a death that prob happened before it even left Arizona.