Andrew Hermes of Arizona Tortoise Compound

I tracked the package from Arizona almost hourly except when I was sleeping during the night of the 18th. I notified Andrew as soon as I was aware of a delay as well as called ups. I do have a current captive bred wildlife permit. This is the first I have heard about when the package was placed in a plastic bag. Andrew has all my emails as do I have his.

ErikL, You should post these. Otherwise its all just blind accusations.
Warren

In my opinion, if a company is willing to ship a tortoise, knowing what that entails and the risks involved, they should be fully responsible for getting a live tortoise to the customer when (not if) FedEx or UPS messes up. If a company is ok with shipping a tortoise in December, the company assumes that responsibility. If you think it's too cold (or hot) to be safe, don't ship the tortoise.[/quote]

My first feeling when I read this was my insides falling out. I feel horrible about the tortoise. If I was the seller, I would have been shocked, dismayed, and very upset. Then I would pay the buyer back for the full purchase price. Which would also be very upsetting to me. We all work hard for our money, and this is a big hit. But it's also the price we sometimes have to pay in the "live" animal business. It sucks for everyone, including the tortoise. Live delivery is a must. Your customer expects it. But if it doesn't, it's the sellers responsibility to make it right, no matter who's at fault. I'm just sorry that this lesson is being learned in such a horrible event.

Originally Posted by Ken Foose

In my opinion, if a company is willing to ship a tortoise, knowing what that entails and the risks involved, they should be fully responsible for getting a live tortoise to the customer when (not if) FedEx or UPS messes up. If a company is ok with shipping a tortoise in December, the company assumes that responsibility. If you think it's too cold (or hot) to be safe, don't ship the tortoise.

My first feeling when I read this was my insides falling out. I feel horrible about the tortoise. If I was the seller, I would have been shocked, dismayed, and very upset. Then I would pay the buyer back for the full purchase price. Which would also be very upsetting to me. We all work hard for our money, and this is a big hit. But it's also the price we sometimes have to pay in the "live" animal business. It sucks for everyone, including the tortoise. Live delivery is a must. Your customer expects it. But if it doesn't, it's the sellers responsibility to make it right, no matter who's at fault. I'm just sorry that this lesson is being learned in such a horrible event.[/quote]

Reality check, from a Veteran in the industry I'm told just now! Excellent, truthful post right here!

Well this will be my last post and Ill continue doing buisness the way I do. I ship live healthy perfect tortoises to customers nationwide weekly. I do guarantee live arrival of my tortoises if all the terms and conditions are met. That is how is it listed, thats how Ive done buisness for the past three years under ATC, thats how I will continue. I have all permits need to maintain my 26 different tortoise species and I will also continue to offer my tortoises nationwide. With the high volume of orders I put out, I can not and will not cover shipper delays, weather or acts of God. Bottom line. In the case of Erik I offered more then what I needed to, to make things right. The time offer is in effect for the way Erik is trying to slam my name and company. Bottom line the terms and conditions are how I run my buisness. The terms are posted and all the other thousands of customers never had a problem with them. I understand this post is permanent . I have nothing to hide and would prefer for all of my customers to read this post before a purchase. I have had one unhappy customer so for in almost 7 years. The way I run my buisness and maintain my tortoises is how I will keep my customers. Ive had this happen before with less valueable tortoises, customers said they understand my terms and would ask for me to go above and beyond which I do depending on the situation. Posting bad comments and threating, that will not get you help for me. Ive received emails from customers today thanking me for their tortoises that just arrived. Im booking a few more shipment for today as well. So I will continue doing buisness today, tomorrow and for many years to come.

Tyler any company can get bad reviews for time to time - http://www.faunatopsites.com/index.p...&all_reviews=1

Originally Posted by msean

I Will put my opinion here as others have and that is what forums are for. Both parties I am sure have the CBW permits or would not be shipping radiateds across state lines. Andrew will be in trouble for this if found out because clearly be brokered a deal for a tortoise that wasn't his as has been made clear and he was offered $300 to broker the deal.
The simple fact to me is that the tortoise would of been fine for a few days even as weather was fine were it not for fact that it was clearly I appropriately packed and shipped by seller. Assuming buyer is telling truth which he says he is and has pictures to prove so much. The tortoise was packed in a box w no air holes and sealed shut with tape. That is wrong. Further, seller got cheap and made a box with styrofoam sides and bottom that could not contain a leak. I breed and raise radiateds of course they will urinate and deaf ate in a box, more so with stress of shipping. Ups did what they always do in that circumstance. Whether or not tortoise was dead already due to a sealed box with no holes is a question that can't be answered. However, if a tortoise was shipped in a correct box w a sealed bottom like a small fish box it would of undoubtedly lived and done well.
Therefore, the tortoise did not die due to UPS delays but died as a direct consequence of incorrect packing. The seller will lose in court and this should go to court. A painful lesson for both parties. Perhaps refunding the money by court order will teach the seller to spend a few bucks and ship a $3000 tortoise in a correct box. Cutting 6 pieces of styrofoam and lining a box is not adequate. Again, not a death due to shipping delays. There is no case against UpS unfortunately, but a strong case against seller. Mistakes he made:
1. Brokering a tortoise and not disclosing it as such. A CBW violation unless original owner has permit. Probably a violation of this site. I know would be of kingsnake if he advertised there also.
2. Packing a live animal in a sealed box with no ventilation holes, this was enough to kill it.
3. Packing in a homemade styrofoam sided his w inability to contain small amount of liquid. This led to ups putting it in plastic bag and its demise if not already dead from the sealed box. CLEARLY the shipping delay had nothing to do with a death that prob happened before it even left Arizona.

I agree with everything in your post minus this point.

. Packing a live animal in a sealed box with no ventilation holes, this was enough to kill it.

It was never a standard to put ventilation holes in the shipping boxes for reptiles. There are many threads here that discuss why people do and don't.

When I first starting shipping about ten years ago I looked to those who have been doing this for years. Those that had twenty years in this business.

I have never put a single ventilation hole in a package. I have yet to have a DOA (knock on wood) and pray I never do. I have shipped and received hundreds of packages without incident.

The whole ventilation stuff started when now a defunct shipping company put forth a video on how to package live reptiles. It was done by one breeder who stated it was necessary. When more and more of the general hobbyist (not breeders) started shipping they looked to that video for guidance and now all of sudden you have people stating that it is a must.

It's garbage and factually not true. Go and look at any shipping thread dating back more than five years and you will not find people ventilating boxes in their tutorial.

I don't do it but also don't seal the box up like fort Knox with tape.

Originally Posted by Ken Foose

In my opinion, if a company is willing to ship a tortoise, knowing what that entails and the risks involved, they should be fully responsible for getting a live tortoise to the customer when (not if) FedEx or UPS messes up. If a company is ok with shipping a tortoise in December, the company assumes that responsibility. If you think it's too cold (or hot) to be safe, don't ship the tortoise.

My first feeling when I read this was my insides falling out. I feel horrible about the tortoise. If I was the seller, I would have been shocked, dismayed, and very upset. Then I would pay the buyer back for the full purchase price. Which would also be very upsetting to me. We all work hard for our money, and this is a big hit. But it's also the price we sometimes have to pay in the "live" animal business. It sucks for everyone, including the tortoise. Live delivery is a must. Your customer expects it. But if it doesn't, it's the sellers responsibility to make it right, no matter who's at fault. I'm just sorry that this lesson is being learned in such a horrible event.[/quote]

This

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

Well this will be my last post and Ill continue doing buisness the way I do. I ship live healthy perfect tortoises to customers nationwide weekly. I do guarantee live arrival of my tortoises if all the terms and conditions are met. That is how is it listed, thats how Ive done buisness for the past three years under ATC, thats how I will continue. I have all permits need to maintain my 26 different tortoise species and I will also continue to offer my tortoises nationwide. With the high volume of orders I put out, I can not and will not cover shipper delays, weather or acts of God. Bottom line. In the case of Erik I offered more then what I needed to, to make things right. The time offer is in effect for the way Erik is trying to slam my name and company. Bottom line the terms and conditions are how I run my buisness. The terms are posted and all the other thousands of customers never had a problem with them. I understand this post is permanent . I have nothing to hide and would prefer for all of my customers to read this post before a purchase. I have had one unhappy customer so for in almost 7 years. The way I run my buisness and maintain my tortoises is how I will keep my customers. Ive had this happen before with less valueable tortoises, customers said they understand my terms and would ask for me to go above and beyond which I do depending on the situation. Posting bad comments and threating, that will not get you help for me. Ive received emails from customers today thanking me for their tortoises that just arrived. Im booking a few more shipment for today as well. So I will continue doing buisness today, tomorrow and for many years to come.

Tyler any company can get bad reviews for time to time - http://www.faunatopsites.com/index.p...&all_reviews=1

Ouch! You just sealed your fate right there Andrew... Please recant for your own sake! 2,000 views, in case you missed that. You will want to quit breeding so many Torts, unless you can afford to feed all those bottomless pits, as you will be STUCK with them in the future.

And Andrew, only you, sealed your fate here... Nobody else! You just heard what a real professional would do in this case. If you want to stray from reality, so be it. I hope you have a 'big bag of some good stuff' to keep you from returning back to it.

Let's clear a path so he can walk the walk. I feel real bad for you Andrew, Tom doesn't, but I do! He is still waiting on that phone call, by the way? Are you going to buckle on that as well?

Originally Posted by Arizona Tortoise Compound

Well this will be my last post and Ill continue doing buisness the way I do. I ship live healthy perfect tortoises to customers nationwide weekly. I do guarantee live arrival of my tortoises if all the terms and conditions are met. That is how is it listed, thats how Ive done buisness for the past three years under ATC, thats how I will continue. I have all permits need to maintain my 26 different tortoise species and I will also continue to offer my tortoises nationwide. With the high volume of orders I put out, I can not and will not cover shipper delays, weather or acts of God. Bottom line. In the case of Erik I offered more then what I needed to, to make things right. The time offer is in effect for the way Erik is trying to slam my name and company. Bottom line the terms and conditions are how I run my buisness. The terms are posted and all the other thousands of customers never had a problem with them. I understand this post is permanent . I have nothing to hide and would prefer for all of my customers to read this post before a purchase. I have had one unhappy customer so for in almost 7 years. The way I run my buisness and maintain my tortoises is how I will keep my customers. Ive had this happen before with less valueable tortoises, customers said they understand my terms and would ask for me to go above and beyond which I do depending on the situation. Posting bad comments and threating, that will not get you help for me. Ive received emails from customers today thanking me for their tortoises that just arrived. Im booking a few more shipment for today as well. So I will continue doing buisness today, tomorrow and for many years to come.

Tyler any company can get bad reviews for time to time - http://www.faunatopsites.com/index.p...&all_reviews=1

Hmm, Always looked at TOS as a way to protect yourself from abuse not to forgo responsibility.

As for the rest, it easy to point to transactions that go as planned. Those types of recommendations about your business are nice but basically those recommendations only show you did what you agreed to do. Send a animal.

It is the transactions that don't go as plan that tell the character of those you are dealing with.

How do you think must reading this are going to feel about you taking care of them if something goes wrong?

I am not a confrontational person. I took no pleasure in initiating this post. I would have been much happier to write a good guy post about how the ATC made the best of a horrible situation, as well as would have helped them recover the loss from ups. As I understand the email Andrew sent me he offered to sell me radiated tortoises at cost which I could re-sell to recoup my loss. For me this will not work out. I suspect that Andrew generally runs a good business, as was indicated by the reviews on this site which I read prior to entering into the transaction. There appears to have been a lapse here. I shipped my tortoise insured, and had it showed up dead, upon proof, a money order would have been in a FedEx envelope immediately for the value of the tortoise. I would have worried about collecting the insurance later.I might ask anyone contributing to this thread, if my tortoise had showed up dead, what ought to happen to me had I responded similarly?