Beware of Jerry Kruse

This is a copy of text messeges once I finally got hold of him after several attempts to contact him.

JK: How many have this skin issue Stu?
Me: 2.2
JK: All four?!? At first it was just 2 of them.....!
Me: Yes. At first it was the male then on 26 jan I sent another text. I didn't get a responce from you.
JK: Oh shit, I'm sorry Stu. I never got that one. What the hell man, I'm just beside myself. This other fella in Maryland purchased almost 20 zonata from me and all is well. Every year, without fail, every sale is fine. I bust my butt to get snakes eating and never a problem, except 2 yrs ago when some guy cooled the snakes with fluctuating temps and the snake got respiratory issues and died.
Me: Well I tried to keep you informed but it was during the holidays and I found out afterward you were out of town. The first male developed but to a lesser degree and I spoke to you on he phone about it. He second male showed signs and worse and we exchanged a txt or two but the 2 females have it bad.
JK: Otherwise, every year is fine and never anything like this. Please, do ship them and I will work with them. If they turn out fine is due time, would you still want them?
Me: At this point I would be afraid to work with them and would rather just get a refund....if you don't mind.
JK: Please don't ship anything. I'm thinking this through really hard. This makes for a very tough position for me. Give me a day.
Me: I totally understand if you need some time to come up with the money. But I hope you understand I need to remove these snakes from my collection as soon as possible. I know you will do the right thing. Let me know. Thanks. Stu
JK: Stu, I'm on the fence right now. I sent you snakes that were in PERFECT condition and I'd worked with for quite a while to get going. If the environment was off perhaps something could have set off a skin problem. They continue to eat and thrive, but have a shedding issue. I need to think this through Stu. I'm upset too about the whole thing. I've sent zonata to John Lassiter and others who partake in the forums, and not once ever a problem. If you feel the need to blast me all over the place that I'm a jerk, then that's up to you. But I'm feeling kinda cornered at this point and I believe things like this work themselves out with time and patience. If they arrived like that, that's one thing. But something went wrong and it wasn't on my end. At the same time I feel awful as well.
Me: I have several hundred colubrids in my collection none of which have this problem. I haven't had them long enough to feel it is my responsibility. I notified you immediately once they started showing symptoms. I am basically a customer who is not satisfied with the product and want to know what you plan to do about it. I know if I sent someone snakes that wasn't happy I would take them back because I would want them to be happy and it's the right thing to do.
JK: I also have a customer whose specimens are in perfect condition as well as three remaining babies from the same clutch that are perfectly fine.
Me: I don't doubt what you are saying but it doesnt change the fact that i have snakes here that I haven't had long enough to feel responsible for. I need to know if you are going to refund my money or not so I know what to do next. If I do not hear from you in 24 hours I will assume you are not.
JK: Stu, why are you not willing to work with these snakes?!? They are dehydrated from what it sounds like, not zonata disease. You had them for two entire weeks and they were doing great. That's enough time for them to respond to perhaps a lack of something they required. Jesus, why are you strong-arming me? Most breeders offer a 48 hour guarantee only! I had them for MONTHS and they were finem , I sold their littermates to a fella in Maryland and they are fine. I have three leftovers from the same clutch and THEY are fine. Something goes awry on your end and I'm the bad guy now? Jesus! You may feel non-responsible after having them for 2 weeks + before something happenedn but I don't share your view on that Stu. If you want to send me them and I can get them back in order, that's fine. Even Rick Staub is telling you that keeping them with not enough humidity dries them out. But you want to blame me? I've sold zonata to Joecop and to John Lassiter and no problems. But you're making me out to be the bad guy in this! Send them to me and let me work with them, but I'm telling you this is NOT my fault Stu! I'd also offer some free snakes in the future, like Cosalas, to try to mend things a little but for crissakes I'm being blamed for something that did not happen in my care, and each and every snake in my collection (which is about 30) is absolutely pristine in condition. Humidity is always around 60% with moist hides as well, ambient temps never over room temperature and only, ONLY, adult females get some belly heat during ovulation and egg development. Maybe these hatchlings WERE too dry in your care.......is that impossible? Two weeks is long enough for ANYTHING to go wrong, but I have to eat it all after working with them for months and they being in perfect status in my care and upon arrival to you? Let's discuss this realistically before we get crazy. So please, send them to me to work with and let's see where this goes. I will give them the utmost care and attention (again) and keep you posted at every step as I did before I sent them to you. Okay?
Me: Yes I turn my phone off after 10 pm. I will call you at 5:30 your time. Ok Jerry, just tried to call but got your voice mail and it was full and wouldn't take any messages.
JK: I'm going to call ya in 'bout 30 minutesm just stuck in traffic and I don't have a hands-free device..... Not avoiding you, I'd never do that, Are they are on basic thawed unscented pinks?
Me: One eats f/t if you wiggle it with forceps and the other waffles between f/t and scented. Takes scented without hesitation. I will mark them accordingly.
JK: Whatever YOU are scenting with, send a piece along just in case. I want to be consistent.
Me: Ok
JK: Next 2 days in NYC high of 50F.
Me: That's good

This was not as easy as some made it out to seem! Many of these emails were replied to making them seem out of sequence. I had to put them in order sio they made some sense. I hope I censored everything appropriately.

On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 5:48 PM, <mbshop@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Stu, Just checking in with how everything is going with the Sierra babies. I might also add that I have been asked to return a couple of small deposits for the 2012 year because some people now think I have zonata disease. Yes, it just goes to show you how many people produced b&w zonata last year and by posting one pic of a baby b&w it has created quite the problem for me in very short order. I would also bet handsomely that either Paul and/or Mitch has contacted you personally, chomping at the bit & fueling all of this as is their nature to do so. Most people at this point would walk away from it all and turn their back, but not to worry -- I won't -- despite the fact that I sent perfect babies that I had for months until I shipped them, have not ONE complaint about me after selling many, many zonata to various people across the county and in Canada over the last decade, & have offered to work with you as best I can while most breeders give nothing more than a 48hr guarantee. At this point I'm left to wonder a little if you really wanted "just" advice Stu & weren't being just a tad vindictive in thinking I was going to screw you. Being a former soldier, you might understand that having jumped the gun and going public like this might be the equivalent of hitting the DefCon 5 button before all the facts were straight. Unstoppable nuclear warheads at that point, inevitable. People thinking I have zonata disease after years of a perfect record, inevitable. Nevertheless, I hope the babies are progressing and, again for the record, I'm open to receiving them at any time as I'd offered earlier this week. I am positive those babies will turn out to be just fine with a bit more humidity, as Dr. Rick Staub suggested on the mountain kingsnake sub-forum. As for my ability to retain zonata customers in the future, I seriously doubt it.
Jerry Kruse

From: Stuart Tennyson <stuart.tennyson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:19:09 -0600
To: <mbshop@aol.com>
Subject: Re: change of plans & an update
Jerry,
I can understand your need to vent but I would like to take this opportunity to clear a few things up.
First of all I went on the forum for 2 reasons. The primary reason was to try to get some help with this situation because I wasn’t getting the help I needed from you. The other reason was to put some pressure on you to respond to me. I felt you were avoiding me hoping I might go away. At this point I was not “vindictive”. I was merely trying to get the help I felt I deserved.
I am truly sorry if this incident has cost you some business. But had you responded differently from the beginning maybe it wouldn’t have come to this. When I first contacted you (within the first 2 weeks after receiving the snakes) if you would have offered some real help other than take the “let’s wait and see” approach then stop responding to my communications we could have avoided this. How do you think I've felt about all this? I spend $3100 on some snakes that look like thay are going to die. I'ts more than I've ever spent on snakes and I feel like the person I bought them from doesn't care.
I know you really want to affix all the blame to me and maybe this condition WAS triggered by something on my end. However, the fact that they started showing symptoms within the first week and I notified you immediately (not to mention I paid you $3100) leads me to think you should have stepped up to the plate at least a little and assumed SOME responsibility. At the very least I would have expected you to stay in closer contact with me.
You can play the victim and tell everyone how I “wronged” you over this deal or you can “man” up and learn from it. I would hope this experience teaches you a valuable lesson. When you’re a” business man” especially in the herp biz customer satisfaction is important and reputation is everything. You can go away with sour grapes in your mouth or you can try to treat people better in the future. The choice is yours.
As far you using the DEFense CONdition readiness codes as an analogy with me……well….you’re slightly off target. DEFCON 5 is the lowest level and used during peacetime. DEFCON 1 is the highest state of alert. If you are really trying to make a connection using these codes then I would say that when I received the snakes we were at DEFCON 5. When I started feeling like you were avoiding me and were not interested in helping me I went to DEFCON 4 when I sent the last message to you and got no response. Going on the forum was like DEFCON 3. You haven’t seen DEFCON 2 or 1 yet.
Please keep all future correspondence with me civil. And BTW Mitch and Paul have not contacted me regarding this issue.
Sincerely,
Stu Tennyson

Gerard KruseFeb 13
Gerard Kruse mbshop@aol.com via srs.bis6.us.blackberry.com
Are you threatening me Stu? All I did was tell you what occurred because you went overboard real fast. You're teaching me a lesson now? And you're telling me that I have something in store?!? What did I do to deserve that??? I was not in contact with you initially because I was out of the country and my cell service was down for a short time. You're making me sound like a f@#king bum Stu, and I resent that. So tell me, what's DefCon 1? I don't take to threats lightly at ALL. And I really don't think I deserve this tone. if you may recall, I DID recently text you after thinking I hadn't heard from you in a while. I didn't get that last text because my cell service was down temporarily. I won't apologize for that because its not something I have done intentionally, nor anything else in this entire exchange between us. I have done the best I can, despite a very brief communication glitch, throughout and this onset of skin dryness is not my fault. I do not have this in my collection nor do I have "zonata disease" either.
As for me not being "concerned as you would like me to be", like I said......I've seen something exactly the same in a southern pinesnake I had about 15 years ago and all was well after numerous sheds and a process of rehydration. Moreover, your snakes were feeding not having missed a beat and were sent in perfect condition after months of being in perfect condition both in health and in husbandry.
I know you may like to THINK I was avoiding you or trying to screw you, but I wasn't. But I gotta tell ya, this strong-arming me along with your veiled threats makes me not want to deal with this at all anymore.
I'm standing by you Stu, but one more response like the one you just sent will be taken as harassment. So please, keep YOUR future correspondence appropriate, as I have not spoken strongly to you or threatened you at all.
You seem to have a bit of an aggressive streak there, and by my telling you how I felt along with the repercussions of your impulsivity has obviously triggered you.....and just why I don't seem to understand. You "felt" I was abandoning you or leaving you to hold the bag........why not outright have ASKED me if I was? Or CALL me to ask if I was......but you assumed Stu. You want to hold me accountable for MY actions, or your PERCEIVED lack of action on my part, but you go ahead and act impulsively based on an ASSUMPTION without credible evidence while trying to blast me and strong-arm me now? Wow. Jeeeezuz, I'm just shaking my head in disbelief right now.
So let's talk about DefCon1.........what am I being threatened with? I apologize if I'm writing this driven by emotion, but that was a flat out threat that any attorney could construe as such, and very much unnecessarily so.
By the way, how are the snakes doing? Just throwing that in so you don't feel I'm being neglectful again. I'm starting to think its best if you send the snakes to me to work with so your hot streak doesn't create any foul play. Thoughts?
Jerry
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryGerard KruseFeb 13

From: Stuart Tennyson <stuart.tennyson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:20:57 -0600
To: <mbshop@aol.com>Subject: Re: change of plans & an update
Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I’m the one who needs to learn a lesson here. I should have listened to the advice of a friend and never had dealings with you in the first place. The fact that you are in complete denial and refuse to take any responsibility tells me there is something wrong with you. I am telling you now to stop contacting me. Do not call me, text me, email me or attempt to contact me in any way.
Stuart Tennyson

The following emails were sent AFTER I told him to stop contacting me.

Gerard KruseFeb 13
Stu,
I have read your email over about 4 times at this point.....I think this is the part that kills me the most:
"You can play the victim and tell everyone how I “wronged” you over this deal or you can “man” up and learn from it. I would hope this experience teaches you a valuable lesson. When you’re a” business man” especially in the herp biz customer satisfaction is important and reputation is everything. You can go away with sour grapes in your mouth or you can try to treat people better in the future. The choice is yours." How disgustingly insulting. Wespoke via text on 12/20 and agreed to how things go. I then went away on a family vacation the day after Christmas and returned on January 4th............ON THE 16 OF JANUARY I sent you a text, since I hadn't heard from you, stating as follows:
"Hey buddy, Happy New Year! How are the critters, particularly that little male?" ........and our conversation ensued. I then lost cell phone service for a brief period until our conversation resumed on 2/6 after I saw you went onto the kingsnake.com forum. You may like to think I did not keep in-touch with you, but from my angle I did. Maybe not getting as hysterical as you'd like me to, but I did reach out. I might also add thay you MAY have had my email address as well as definitely having my telephone #........why not have used another form of communication (even Facebook or the kingsnake.com forum to find me and send me a direct email....!) to contact me if the text wasn't going through and you were so upset? I'm not looking to argue despite my feeling angered over your prior harsh email, but I'm just exploring what other options you had and pointing out that I did not IGNORE you. Because if I was I would never have text you on January 4th IN THE FIRST PLACE!
JerrySent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Gerard Kruse mbshop@aol.com via srs.bis6.us.blackberry.com
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Gerard Kruse <mbshop@aol.com> wrote:
One last thing, can you please re-send me that text I did not receive?.........just copy and paste it and send it to me. If you don't have it or can't find it, no problem......I can contact my cell phone company to locate it if I must. Last we conversed by text you were concerned but willing to wait things out after their next shed.
That text was sometime between 1/16/12 and 2/6/12 from what I'm understanding. Thanks in advance.
Jerry Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Gerard Kruse mbshop@aol.com via srs.bis6.us.blackberry.com

Gerard KruseFeb 15 (12 days ago)
Gerard Kruse mbshop@aol.com via srs.bis6.us.blackberry.com
Hi Stu,
I was able to track down that missing text thru my wireless company -- you know, the one that I did not receive due to my service being down for a short time and that I'd asked you for recently. Well, here is what I got:
"Hi Jerry,
Thought you might like an update. Both females have shed for the second time in a month! Their scales still look rough and they both needed help shedding but as you can see they still have an appetite. the male is in the blue for the 3rd time in five weeks! He's eaten 8 times and seems to be on the mend. One female has eaten 8 times and the other 9 times. I still have the first female and the 2 year old in the cold room. The only thing I can think is maybe the small ones got a touch of frost bite in shipment. The first pair you sent don't seem to show any signs of a skin problem and neither does the larger one which adds to my theory. Whatever it is I've never seen anything quite like it and the fact that they are all feeding well and shedding I think tells me they are on the mend."
This is the text that I initially did not get and according to my Verizon account was sent on 1/26/12. I then sent YOU a text on 2/6/12 after seeing you post on the mountain kingsnake forum never having known you sent that text on 1/26.
So you mean to tell me that after only ELEVEN DAYS you ASSUMED that I was ditching you?!?!? Especially after you send a text telling me they're looking better and you're feeling they are on the mend?!? Wow again Stu, and this new-found information shows there is not, nor was, anything wrong with me.
Just for the record, how are they doing?
Jerry
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

OMG. Thank you Stu for piecing all this together. I'm not a judge, but if a small claims case like this came before me with all this evidence, I would side with you and award you your $3100 bucks back and then proceed to give a stern lecture to Mr Kruse why the customer is always the king. It is clear you got screwed on this deal. The good news is that like Jerry said, he is losing business because of his intransigence. The zonata community is very small compared to the overall herp community. If you piss off one customer, you might as well announce in a bullhorn to everyone that this is how your dealings with me will go if you try to buy any animals from me.

wow that sux! hopefully this gets resolved. how many zonata did you get for 3100.00? and are all of them having this problem? seems from the emails jerry offered you to send them back? am i missing something???

,,,,,,,,thomas davis

I got 6 total. Yes you are missing something. I was afraid of this when I was trying to copy all the txt and emails. Its hard to follow the sequence of events. He only offered to take them back and "work" with them. He did not offer a refund. He only made this offer late in the string of events and after I believe he was feeling pressured. At that point I didn't feel comfortable sending the animals back. If the problem was stress induced then I didn't want to stress them out any more. I also was losing trust in him and was afraid if I sent them back I wouldn't see my snakes or money again.

wow thats ALOT of money for 6 zonata!
to me taking them back would mean a refund.
wheres jerry???
ive had runins w/jerry on the forums before and he can be.... well anyway i dont think he would take the snakes back and NOT refund your money, but yeah id be hesitant over that much money also.
wheres jerry???
seems like this could be a simple fix.
wheres jerry???

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

If I read it properly, I think Jerry wanted Stu to send them back to work with them but NEVER promised to refund any money. I too would be wary if some seller said this to me. As zonata disease is such a lethal/contagious disease and has devastated many zonata collections, I have no idea why the breeder who has a "pristine" collection would want the babies back to work with.

On a side note, I'm not at all suprised this poor transaction has occurred. I met Jerry last year at one of the White Plains shows. Oddly enough he had no animals at his table but rather a computer with nice pictures of zonatas. We talked a bit and he was asking me to put a deposit down for eggs that haven't hatched yet. I'm always a bit wary when someone says that and thank God I didn't as I later heard that he has attempted to buy other people's zonatas to resell, claiming animals that are his that really wasn't, etc... Whether the above statement were true or not, I personally don't know but when no one is saying anything positive about a breeder, it's an ominous sign of buyer beware for me. Gosh, Jerry is questioning Stu's husbandry? Stu has 40 years of husbandry/breeding experience in colubrids and is one of the founding fathers of the greyband "fanatics." I just can't imagine if he'd do this to Stu, what he would do to other customers that are less well known. I feel for you Stu.

Originally Posted by StuTennyson

This is my first post on the BOI and I thought I was supposed to censor it. I also thought it was a forum to warn others and not putting myself up for judgement. I've been dealing with this situation since before Christmas and this was my last resort. I will try to do better!

Sorry Stu, but yes, everyone who posts claims about the business affairs of others HAS to come under scrutiny and their claims judged for credibility and accuracy. Nothing can, nor should, be taken at face value. I believe that if you consider why this must be, you will understand why it is actually the only fair way for discussions of this nature to take place.

There is not any penalty here for not providing supporting evidence, but people here have come to expect such documentation if they are being asked to come to any conclusion of their own about the unsupported statements and conclusion(s) being presented by any party.

Oh... I found where Jerry is. He's on his web site blog, wallowing in tears, and blaming the world for picking on him. It's great when you have your own site, post your version of the story, and no one else can express an opinion. Maybe he can give himself some psychotherapy.

I personally have received animals from Jerry and they were nothing but top-notch. And certainly nothing like this went down. How are the animals doing now? Are they feeding? How is their skin looking? From what I've heard, one of the symptoms of zonata disease is refusal to feed and subsequent wasting. Just curious is all, these look like the same pics from the KS thread, if they are doing better/worse, maybe new pics should be posted? I've read the KS thread and that's the reason I rarely post on there anymore. Mud-slinging, personal attacks, etc... we are all suppose to be kindred spirits in this hobby, helping one another and not tearing each other apart. E-mails from your communication and recent pics of the animals would be helpful to your case/complaint.