Need opinions on a bad deal with Tim Bowles of Arboreals of the Rainforest!!!

I think you have to be objective and look at some facts...

Quick Corallus Fact:
Emerald tree boas have very slow metabolisms compared to most other boids. They feed, move, and defecate relatively infrequently when compared to say, a boa constrictor. For the snake to be in the dehydrted state that it was in, one of 2 scenarios had to occur here.

1) The snake got sick. The snake could have regurged a few times which causes them to dehydrate quickly and would also support having such low values as reported by the vet. It could also have gone off-feed for a while...sometimes they do this during times of stress or sickness such as with a resp. infection (which would also cause some dehydration).

2) The snake was ignored. You'd have to provide some hostile conditions for quite some time for the snake to look that way. Like everything else, emeralds unfortunately take a relatively long time to fall apart. I'd say that animal had to be dehydrated for at least several weeks time for the rostral scales to cave in that way and for the scales along the neck and body to "double over". As you can see in the before pic a healthy animal should have a seemless appearance, the scales should not appear jagged.

I'm glad you're doing all you can for that animal Matt, don't give up on her!

C'mon Tim, do the right thing dude.

Some afternoon shots. I am getting a little worried because she is now coiled loosly over two pvc perches and her tail is slightly hanging down. When I feel her body from the sides it is very mushy like there is not much muscle tone.

Here you can see the loose skin on the sides of the neck. I lifted her head up after I took the pic and she held it up for a couple of seconds and then put it right back down.


This is a mid body shot. Her skin is loose and she kind of 'melts' over the perch. You can see by how wide her body is on the pvc that there is not much muscle tone there.


This is a lower body shot. Not so puffy anymore but more saggy. It has the same melting look to it and the same squishy feeling too. The skin is also loose in this area.


I am hoping this is just a 'bad afternoon' for her!

We know it was injected and shipping had nothing to do with this. This animal should have never been shipped IMO. If Tim would have been upfront wth the health of the animal then this would have never happened.

I might of missed it but I do not think Tim denied that the animal was sick. he never said the animal was 100%. So why ship a 2500 dollar snake when it is not 100%

Tim post and answer some of the questions please.

Here in Michigan we got this thing called the 'lemon law' for when you buy a car, if its a bad car and not honestly represented ,you are compensated
Good thing for you Tim that there is no law like that for herps ehh??.....
That snake looks terrible...one question Tim ----what do you call healthy???

What can one say about this thread. Truly sad for all (including the snake).
A little history.........I have purchased from Tim before. He and I did a trade. I sent him an adult chondro and he sent me a great pair of baby ETB's. I look at a few things here, both visual and verbal (well typed anyway) and it just does not add up.
When I received the two ETB's from Tim, last year now, they were packed with more paper than that big box had. They were in there nice and tight, they had a thermometer in the box so I new (and he wanted to know) what the temp was when I received them. The snakes were very healthy.
I have also seen MANY posts here on the BOI from TIm. He speaks in a way that we are all fromiliar with (polite, considerate, kind, etc.) The words ehre so not come across the same way (granted, he is not hearing things he likes, but there is still a diff "tone" here).
We used to email each other back and forth and through time (not his fault or mine, just happened) we lost touch so to speak. He was always jovial and fun to go back and forth with.
My point is this. It is almost like a TOTALLY different person packed this snake, wrote the emails, posted here on the BOI, etc. Now I am NOT MAKING excuses. I think we all know TIm well enough (and myself proobably least of all) and I think you know where I am coming from. It just seems so "odd".

With that said, I have a few questions about this injection process. Worst case senario, as it was said somewhrere on here, it can be fatal. For me learning something ehre, let's say it is not a "lethal" dose, and hopefully not. Wouldn't the snake jsut absorb this liquid and go back to being the same old snake it always was? I have never heard of someone (human) having an I.V. in for too long and getting sick/dying. You understand my point? I am just wondering why a snake would be any different. Could the snake be put on heat to "cook" the liquid out? Might be far off, but again, I am new to this injection process. I have heard of it, but that is it.

Lastly, Tim, like many have said, you are a stand up guy. It seems you have many people (including me) that would want to support you, but need to know what happened here. Even if you and Matt did have a falling out, so to speak, could you not tell him (even privately) what you do know.............just for the snakes sake? Even if you truely did not inject the snake, what else can you offer for the snakes condition at this time? Do it for the snake, again, even if you have a presonal thing for Matt. I jsut hate to see a snake in this condition and taking the snake out of it all together, I hate, even more to a degree, you and Matt having this fall out.

Hope it all works out for TIm, AMtt, and the ETB.

Best of luck guys!
Brian Oakley

Sorry for the typos there at the end. WOuld not allow me to edit it!


Brian Oakley

Matt,
I'm totally shocked as well and sorry to see that this kind of deal has happened between you and Tim. I have never dealt with Tim and have rarely conversed with him so I don't know enough to comment on his integrity.

However, not mentioning the obviously questionable health of the animals mentioned...I personally would never ever ship or agree to recieve an emerald tree boa shipped via UPS or Airborne...especially UPS!! UPS is extremely risky where I am. If they miss you the box goes back in the warehouse overnight and you can't get a human being on the phone to save your life!

A hardier snake such as a $100 amazon tree boa, a colombian boa, or even a hardy chondro could perhaps handle that kind of shipping much better than an emerald but I would never risk it for high priced animals. I would only do Delta Dash with emeralds period...they are just too dang delicate. Especially a high end $2500 Basin or New Locale specimen! It's just too risky!! a $2500 snake!!...man, why didn't you all ship Dash??
John Hedger

Brian,

The biggest problem with snakes and ETBs specially is that everything about them in so slow......If u were to give an over dose of fluids the snake would be unable to process it fast enough and would drown.........it would start with a back up of fluids in the kidneys and work its way up .......Once it hits the lungs ur in BIG trouble....... Ever heard of fluid on the lungs????? With out the proper meds to "dry" it out from the inside out ,it would die. The biggest problem I see with Matts snake is that she was very dehydrated to start with and using any meds to help with the over hydration she has possibly recieved could kill her as well......So really, all I can see Matt being able to do is wait it out..........

Hopefully the mushie feeling will go away as the fluid under her skin is absorbed.......

All the bast of luck Matt

Matt,
Sorry to see this ugly turn of events -it dose'nt take a rocket scientist to see this snake's condition is not a result of shipping length or temp.I too do not guarentee shipments when shipping by carriers other than Delta dash but I also do not ship animals in that condition either. Danny is right ,as well as others, the metabolism of an emerald tree boa would'nt allow it to deteriorate quick enough for that animal's condition to be blamed on shipping problems-even if there was a delay. Anything that could cause a healthy animal to arrive in that condition in that short of time would be in my opinion enough to kill it. Your purchase is quite obviously of a damaged animal prior to shipping and it's likely you may not get compensated. Be that as it may it's good to be informed as to the nature of someones credibility so others on this forum won't get burned as well from the same guy. Hope this friend of yours gets a concience and does the right thing.-Tim whoever you are it would be best to handle the return off line and get it over with.
Pete-Incredible Pets Inc.

Hey John,

I have never had a bad experience with UPS and I still haven't yet. This had absolutely NOTHING to do with UPS except they brought it from point A to point B in less than the alloted amount of time. It left Tim's at 7:00 at night and got here at 9:01 am without a hitch. Tim is also not a known shipper so he has to use UPS or airborne. I have had two vets who trained with Elliot Jacobson examine the animal for two days and they both said that shipping had zero to do with the way this animal arrived.

Hey Brian,

There is little doubt in my mind that an emerald can absorb fluids that are injected in a short period of time. There is a bigger problem though and that is why did it have to be done in the first place and why wasn't I told before I was told I had to send the money up front? The whole deal stunk from the begining. I didn't think of it at the time but I told a couple of people that I couldn't believe that Tim was making such an issue about getting paid up front. Heck he even sent me a Paypal link one night that said something like click here to send Tim Bowles money. I mean it was strange and now I know why. Hopefully it will work out.