Identify?

Okay, so this had me curious enough to look it up... somewhere OTHER than the internet. With all due respect Kyle, if you're trying to prove something, don't quote internet sites as your resources. They teach us that here in the 'lame' midwest... (along with the proper use of the YOU'RE conjunction.)

Anyway, only ONE of my books describes the toe count on Terrapene carolina species. Here is an excerpt:

THREE-TOED BOX TURTLE
Terrapene carolina triumguis
Identification: 4.5-5 in.; record 7 in. Don't depend entirely on the toes--it sometimes has four! The Florida Box Turtle also usually has only three toes on each hind foot, and so do occasional specimens of all other subspecies. Concavity in plastron of males very shallow or absent. A marked tendency for pattern to be replaced (sometimes completely) by plain olive- or horn-colored areas; plastron often plain yellow or horn-colored. Orange or yellow spots usually conspicuous on both head and forelimbs. ... Range: Mo. to Tx and s.-cen. Ala.

EASTERN BOX TURTLE
Terrapene carolina carolina
Identification: 4.5 - 6 in.; record 7 13/16 in. A "land turtle" with a high, domelike shell and an extremely variable coloration and pattern. Both upper and lower shells may be yellow, orange, or olive on black or brown; either dark or light colors may predominate. Four toes on each hind foot. Male: rear lobe of plastron with central concave are; eyes sometimes red. Female: Plastron flat or slightly convex; eyes normally brown. Young: shell much flatter; mostly plain grayish brown, but with spot of yellow on each large scute. ... Range: Ne. Mass. to Ga., west to Mich., Ill., and Tenn. Within the U.S. this and all other races of Terrapene carolina intergrade with one another in most areas where their ranges come in contact; two other races occur in Mexico.

Both of these descriptions are from a Peterson Field Guide: Reptiles and Amphibians of Easter/Central North America. Another subspecies listed in the book is the Gulf Coast Box Turtle, Terrapene carolina bauri, and it is described as having four toes. I now understand why there is such confusion when it comes to the common names of this species. Since their ranges overlap, and each 'race' can be so variable, why would one want to call a four-toed specimen a "three-toed box turtle?" Given these descriptions, it would be MY opinion (for what it's worth) that since there are multiple subspecies, and they are each individually variable, that the animals with three toes on the rear feet should be considered "three-toed box turtles". Otherwise I think it should fall under one of the other subspecies.

Originally Posted by kyleMiller

I found it.

A female with an extra toe?

Originally Posted by critical bill

LOL. If Kyle searches on the Internet what I wrote I think its the last we'll ever see of him.

I am sorry to see that you believe this is your mission on this website, Chuck. All you needed to do was to state facts and opinions in this issue, not attempt to browbeat another member here. Kyle responded with profanity because of YOUR provocation. Normally I don't bother to read through threads to see what progression took place to incite someone to post profanity, but in this case I did, and it is pretty clear what happened.

I do not want this sort of thing taking place on this site. Period. If there is a disagreement, fine, just state the facts as you know them and your opinions about those facts. But needling someone such as took place on this thread is definitely not needed nor welcomed. I came VERY close to fining and suspending you for this. But maybe this warning will suffice to curtail that sort of activity in the future. If not, you can't say that you haven't been warned, Chuck.

hey chuck youre starting to catch up with me!!!!!!!!! =P

Originally Posted by robin s.

hey chuck youre starting to catch up with me!!!!!!!!! =P

But you two together don't equal Wes.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

I am sorry to see that you believe this is your mission on this website, Chuck.

Its not my mission, just my nature.

Originally Posted by WebSlave

Kyle responded with profanity because of YOUR provocation.

I never complained about his use of profanity and I'll agree I got under his skin and was the cause of HIS choice of words. I'll accept his warning points also if you dont feel he deserved them......even if that means I am fined and suspended. I'll pay my fine and move forward.

Originally Posted by robin s.

hey chuck youre starting to catch up with me!!!!!!!!! =P

Its my mission, didnt you know that.

Originally Posted by Jim O

But you two together don't equal Wes.

Oh please please dont say stuff like that. I've already been warned about Russ. I want no issues with him. LOL.

I don't know much about politeness or arguments but id o know tha what has been stated is incorrect insofar as goes the taxonomy.
The type specimen has three toes (so i've been told, though i've not seen it) but the description allows for four toes to be present.

But this may be moot as "subspecific" status probbaly doesn't really apply in the case of Terrapene carolina. Its a clade for sure but probably not one with valid subspecies.

I was just over by my friends place today and the little one has 3 toes. Mystery solved. It's a rare 3 toed 4 toed boxie.