Mark Miller of Loco-Lizards Liar and a Thief

Mark you can continue here with your lies if you like but i and some others know better. You never said refund, you said compensation of another snake. You stopped answering my calls well before legal action was threatened and that's why i'm even looking into that avenue. Sorry, but i wasnt willing to just walk away from $6500. I will exhaust every option to recoup some of it. Keep it honest? What a joke coming from you! Your good heartedness? Please? You totally took advantage of me. You took everything and gave me nothing. I dont care about anything that happened before May 1st. You knew everything that happened and still took him back. Maybe some people here are naive enough to think you did it to help me. Others are not naive enough to think that i would send back a $6500 snake without the promise of compensation. Also i didnt call your customers. They called me. When they heard you were giving me a refund they were worried that you were going to give me something that wasnt yours. Unfortunately people are not willing to get involved as they are still hoping to get what you owe them. They are worried that if they state the truth you will not honor their deals either. As far as your family was involved, when you refuse to contact me, i tried other number hoping to reach you thinking they were yours. Also as far as people needing proof. You keep screaming proof as you know all we had were verbal discussions. When you finally decided to send an email, which we were well into a problem at this point, i guess you had spoken to someone, so when i received them they were already full of lies which i replied to you with the correct discussions and information but at that point it was also clear to me you were back pedalling and trying to cover your path with lies. There are also other people who heard you say you owe me compensation but again are unwilling to get involved. I know you will scream who. But you actually know full well who they are. And as far as some people thinking i am only out the $1500 cash i sent. Please dont let them put a value on what i produced. If my babies are valuless maybe they can send me all of what they produced for free as anythiing someone produces is valueless as far as they are concerned. And lets not forget i paid you $2300 for that coral albino female as a baby. So you actually beat me twice. Also good people going on to say the truth shouldnt be attacked for doing so. Just because you are a liar doesnt mean anyone who thinks you are wrong is also a liar.

Laura,

I appreciate the points you have made. I also agree a necropsy is extremely important and that is why Mark should have done so since the animal died in his possession after 2 months and he was the only one of us that was aware of it's death.

As far as quarantine was concerned I trusted Mark who knew my intention to breed it once received and that trust was a mistake. However, if I quarantine for 90 days with the same issues I still would have been out of Marks tos at that point.? I normally do quarantine all incoming animals but in this instance I was acquiring the animal specifically because I was told it was courting and i needed it for this breeding season. I did have the animal a few weeks with it holding down it's second meal before I tried to breed it. when it did not court or breed i immediately put it into quarantine where it stayed until it was shipped back to mark. I agree quarantine is important and that may have been a mistake on my part that will not be made again... I do want to point out that the issues with that particular snake appear to be it's own since the 1 and only snake i exposed it to is still completely healthy and has been vet checked.

i am more than willing to take my ego out and find the middle ground with mark but he still refuses contact. maybe with the power of the boi this matter can come to a resolution.

I totally agree with Laura's post .It is to the point .As an almost neutral party(had one dealing with John several years back,when I still had Boas),you can see mistakes made on both sides .The only nagging question I have as an observer,is why would Mark ever take the snake back,if he states that he was well aware it would die,and says also that John knew it would die,.....Why take it back? I am curious to a reason more than the simple act of kindheartedness benevolence explained .I may sound callous,but I wouldn't want a snake back that I felt was going to die,not only for the safety of my collection,best quarantine is not allowing any sick animal in your house,let alone any strict quarantine procedure,but also the undue stress of shipping it again .Taking it back voids the transaction,and seems to place accountability on you now for assuming the responsibility of it's care .JMHO.Marcus Q.

People, please stop the whole quarantine/breeding argument. There is no validity to it with regards to this complaint. Yes, John should have quarantined it but let's be honest, most people don't when it comes to needing a breeder male/female right here right now. And, his explanation, based upon the info Mark provided, is completely acceptable. You and I are small time breeders and we obviously follow a stricter standard. But, reality is bigger breeders don't. Anyways, leave it alone as it's only serving to distract from the real issue at hand.

Mark, here's some simple questions for you:

1) Mark, can you show this board any emails from you (along with headers) that were dated prior to July whereby you stated you would not be issuing a refund?

2) Are you stating for the record that you, neither in email or voice, never promised to make this right by giving John a credit?

3) Do you currently owe anyone else substantial amounts (+$500) of money for breeder animals received in yet did not produce this year?

4) Did you tell anyone other then John and his one witness on this board, that you owed him a credit?

5) Why did you not call John to let him know the animal had died?

Mark, think very carefully about how you answer these questions. I'll be perfectly blunt. I think you're lying. It makes NO sense to take this animal back. It makes no sense, other than to paint a distorted picture, to use verbage such as:

Originally Posted by KingPin

Me being the kind hearted individual I am and simply trying to keep a customer happy and look out for the well being of the animal,

unless you are trying to hide reality. Your explanation simply does not hold water.

To the BOI......think about it. What motivations would John have to come on here and tell the board that he failed to quarantine? After all, there were no emails communications between him and Mark so it's not like it could have been proven. John has repeatedly admitted his failures here. Mark, has made nothing but excuses and it simply does not pass the common sense test. Mark agreed to take the animal back but for what purpose? To be kind? An offer was made by Mark and accepted by John. When Mark accepted delivery of the animal then a new contract was entered into. This is not rocket science to see through this.

Keep your ears open folks as there is a lot of info being discussed outside of the BOI.

Griz

Agreed,I don't pay any attention to that part of this as a transaction,just an error in judgement,that could or could not have been a contributing factor in the demise of the animal.No necropsy,no ability to place blame on either party medically.I just do not think there is any transaction left when you take the animal back.

Now Mark suggests he did it out of benevolence,but I still have a hard time swallowing that as just a casual observer reading this.Maybe I'm getting cynical,but it seems like alot of risk to accept,which if something goes wrong,well it is now on your lap,especially two months later.I hope these guys work this out.Really do.

From one breeder of high end boas to another, Mark should try his best to take care of this situation or his reputation will be permanently tarnished. This thread is here for all to see and anyone that's naive enough to buy another high end animal from Mark Miller is taking a big risk knowing they could have the same scenario happen to them.
It appears Mark is going to take the, "I'm going to stick my head in the sand and hope this goes away approach." If he offered a credit of $6,500 towards a bloody hypo or whatever, it's not to late to do so.
If Mark was using the male blood in question for breeding purposes prior to selling it to John, did he actually produce a litter from it? Kinda makes me think he knew it was going to flop over because he knew it had issues so he dumped it before HE TOOK THE HIT. It makes sense he would not want a paper trail (e-mails on record) and would promise the world over the phone, knowing there would be no proof of what was said afterwards.
Call it theory and conjecture on my part, but the people on this board and those that read it are a hell of a lot smarter than Mark gives credit.
It's not to late to save your rep Mark and I think it's in your best interest to do so. In the long run you'll come out way ahead. Anything less and you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

First of all , I never said you offered a refund, What i said you said quote:is that you owed him a credit, So If your going to quote me please read carefully! I know what I heard. I don't know why you just don't get on the phone with John and work this out on a fair ground for both of you. You are both trying to achieve the same goals as breeders and you should honor what you verbally promised. A good business man does what he can to make things right.
And also John would not be so up in arms about this unless he was done wrong. And if he thought the snake was in that much distress I think he would have added the couple of dollars onto the shipping and brought it to a vet, But he was sending it back for a credit, If You could not help it and it died without ever going to a vet in your care. And John wasn't even told until 2 months later COME ON!!!
Mark : You know what you said!

Reguards, Fred& Debbie
Hunterreptiles

Can someone check the dates on the pictures of the blood that Mark submitted?

Griz

Half of what anyone is saying is conjecture. He said/she said, as I earlier said. At any point did any party think: Hmmm, there is some difficulty here, maybe I should get some of this in back or white?

Some of you would be screaming this if it were lesser known businesses. It still applies here and will on the legal side IMO.

To me the only part resting on Mark is that he accepted the snake back. I'm not sure what this falls under in the legal beagle side of a business transaction. Stating why in this case is highly opinionated unless its in an email chain that we aren't seeing.

My name is Mark Miller of The Gecko Basement. I breed leos, o. castlenaui and veiled chams. I do not have anything to do with this thread and just wanted to make that clear. All my herps have legs.lol.