Mark Miller of Loco-Lizards Liar and a Thief

Not that it's definite that any vet would have been able to diagnose or treat the animal successfully, but it would lend credance to treating the animal yourself if you've also gone the 'extra' mile and taken it to the supposed experts too.

I would and have taken snakes to our vet on a few occasions; most of the time the animals got better with the care/medicine, only once did they not. We tried everything with my pet Super Tiger retic that stopped eating: fecals, bloodwork, X-rays, different meds etc. but sadly she died a few months later. The necropsy stated that the cause of death was inconclusive. The point of this is that she was only a $500 snake (but was worth much more to me), but a $6500 snake!? Come on, at least make a real effort to find out what might be wrong.

Originally Posted by KCRD.com

I spoke with Mark about this situation earlier this afternoon and because of some actions taken part by the other party he will not be posting on this thread again until this is decided by the court system. All I can say is that physical threats are not the way to get things fixed.

I know if this was me, I would be implying the "I wish" factor. "I wish" that the threats would be carried out by the other party. It'd be much easier to take care of that way.

Oh, that's right Jason, it's perfectly fine to be a hypocrite so long as it is favoring your friend?? You want to call me out for "gossip" when the only "gossip" I stated was the fact that people are talking and that it's up to each person to do their due diligence. I never once stated that what was being said was negative or positive. I simply stated that the information is out there to be found. That's hardly an anonymous posting.

So Jason, since you are so found of men with big ca-hones, why doesn't Mark come here and defend himself? Oh that's right, he's down to #4 on the typical scammer list of excuses.....my attorney told me not to.

If, AND IT'S A BIG IF, Mark took this animal back out of the KINDNESS OF HIS HEART, then why did it take him 2 months to tell John? You would think that since his motives were altruism at it's best that he would have called John immediately to express his DEEPEST SYMPATHY and to show John that a proper and full burial was had. After all, it was the animal that Mark was concerned with. Right......that sure passes muster doesn't it?

Griz

I Agree with Griz:

Lets examine facts:

Mark did take the snake back, Voiding the Tos

Mark did not keep John updated on the animals worsening condition.

Mark did not ask John if he should take it to a vet or take it on his own.

Mark did not act responsibly for the animals health.

Mark did not inform John that the animal died until 2 months later !!!!

Mark did not return Johns calls when he knew it was compensation time.

If Mark is worried about his reputation especially if this is his livelihood and he is so kind and caring as I keep reading I think it is time for him to (make it right) Work it out, Offer compensation in whatever form that makes both of them feel they have resolved this issue. Its not to late to settle this. $6500. is alot of money to just bury in the sand Mark!

Fred & Debbie
Hunterreptiles

Originally Posted by hunterreptiles

I Agree with Griz:

Lets examine facts:

Mark did take the snake back, Voiding the Tos

Mark did not keep John updated on the animals worsening condition.

Mark did not ask John if he should take it to a vet or take it on his own.

Mark did not act responsibly for the animals health.

Mark did not inform John that the animal died until 2 months later !!!!

Mark did not return Johns calls when he knew it was compensation time.

If Mark is worried about his reputation especially if this is his livelihood and he is so kind and caring as I keep reading I think it is time for him to (make it right) Work it out, Offer compensation in whatever form that makes both of them feel they have resolved this issue. Its not to late to settle this. $6500. is alot of money to just bury in the sand Mark!

Fred & Debbie
Hunterreptiles

The TOS expired two weeks after purchase, it didn't get voided by Mark. It was already a non factor by then.

And is this Fred or Debbie posting?

I agree with you Alan about the expiration of the TOS. However, when Mark accepted delivery of the animal he also accepted a certain amount of responsibility. Such as, the responsibility to do what was necessary to help the animal (ie vet visit).....the responsibility to keep John informed.......the responsibility to our hobby to not scam people out of their money.....

When you add 2+2 nobody can say that Mark is in the right here. It simply does not add up.

Griz

I also agree with Griz. I understand what others are saying that the TOS ended a long time ago - but hefty purchases between big breeders don't always fall under those TOS.

We still don't know under what premise Mark accepted the snake back. True, according to him, he could have been trying to 'help out' and get the snake feeding.

BUT the snake died in his possession and he didn't notify the other party. The snake could well have died from a bad force feeding.

Logically, why would someone return a $6500 snake to the seller, just to have him try to nurse it back to health? If nothing had been agreed to verbally before shipment, don't you think John would have taken it to the vet? If Mark had agreed to take the snake back and "make" the situation "right", John wouldn't have needed to take the snake to the vet, since Mark was accepting the return (regardless if it was for a refund or for another animal in the future).

Why would Mark not tell John about the death for two months after trying to force feed?

Mark violated his own TOS when he accepted a snake back. Moreover, he did not take the snake to the vet to cover his own butt, he kept it and didn't disclose when it died. There was no necropsy to tell for sure what happened. Mark didn't even return the corpse to John, so John has no options.

This is why I dislike talking on the phone, and like email. Sure, the lack of tone of voice can cause misunderstandings, but when something is in PRINT, it's harder for someone to weasel out of a verbal agreement!

Terms of Service are only good if the seller upholds them. By not telling John "I'm sorry, my health guarantee is for so many days", and instead saying "I'll make it right" and whatever else he verbally said, and then accepting the returned snake.... he voided his own TOS in this case. He accepted a return outside his own TOS.

If he wanted to cover his butt, immediately informing John of the death (as in "Sorry, YOUR snake died even after I tried to save it, do you want me to ship you the corpse or have a necropsy done, since it's YOUR snake?") would have been the thing to do. He didn't. So, something's stinky, and it's not the poor snake.

Originally Posted by Griz

I agree with you Alan about the expiration of the TOS......


the responsibility to our hobby to not scam people out of their money.....

If the TOS were expired, how is Mark scamming anyone out of anything?

Originally Posted by Griz

the responsibility to do what was necessary to help the animal (ie vet visit)..

Wouldn't that have been John's responsibility primarily, during the four months he had the animal in his care? How can you hold Mark at fault for not taking the animal to the vet when it's owner didn't see fit to take it?

Erin, I am not debating whether John had culpability in this as he did. He should have brought it to a vet during it's time with him. However, as I am sure you well know, often times we know more than the vet does. But, both parties fail in that respect however neither issue is really what's at hand now is it? My point in stating Mark's responsibility was simply to address Jason's questions. I would have answered similarly if it had been asked about John with the scamming being the exception.

Erin, there is no doubt that both parties failed in varying aspects of this trade. However, ultimately Mark took the animal back, accepted responsibility for the animal, refused to tell John the animal died and then refused to accept John's phone calls and emails. If you were taking the animal back out of the "goodness of your heart" then why said behavior? It's clear. He's scamming. If he pays John then he can't pay Peter or Paul so lie and hope that everything ends up ok. Classic behavior that the BOI is no stranger to. How unfortunate.

Griz

Ew Boy, OK I can go along with the TOS having expired. The animal going back to the breeder starts something new.

So the guy takes the snake back and at some point it dies . he doesn't let the owner(former owner?) know about the death of the snake. If I remember correctly John heard from someone else that it had died. Seems strange to me that he didn't let the John know that the snakes was dead well unless he considered himself the owner. Mark took the decision away from John as to wheather or not he wanted to have a necropsy done. Now if John would have decided to have one done or not is a moot point.

What was said between the two before the animal was returned doesn't really matter now as who knows what was said over the phone.. What I see that bothers me the most about this Deal is that Mark cut off communications and avoided John. Which makes me think that Mark did a bad thing to the pooch.

I have no dog in this hunt, I'm not even into those critters. Just looking at this story makes me think that yeah John should have done more for the animal than he did.
I look at Mark's actions and well they just sort of reek of guilt and knowing that (from his other thread) that he has trouble giving up money he owes just adds to that feeling


Question John did he ever send you a photo of the dead snake??as many here know, it is a common practice to send a photo of a deceased animal... If not how do you know it's dead?? Randy

Actually Randy, excellent point. Mark was so intent of avoiding contact that I NEVER did recive photos of a dead animal. Hmmm.....