Opinions needed...

After all the discussion about the alfredschmidti, I have taken a closer look at some of my lizards. I am suspicious that a female I have is alfredschmidti. Since I am still trying to figure out the identification criteria, I thought you all could help. I just measured her, svl= 300mm at least, may be more due to squirming, total length over 600mm. I can't get a weight today but will do so when I bring my scale back from school on Monday. She seems to meet the size criteria, but her markings are somewhat different that I would expect so thats where my doubt lies. I'll attach some side head shots, one should show the other female she is housed with and there is certainly a big difference in their coloring and size. I would love to know what you guys think. I have her paired up with a Czz male and they had a baby recently, so that would be interesting if she turns out to be Cza!

It looks like my photos are too big to post, so I'll have to adjust them and try again. So check back to see them.

Kisha

Here are the photos, I hope. Everyone was enjoying pumpkin night, so excuse the orange faces! Um Um

K

Hiya Kisha,
I am perhaps the farthest from experience one can be without doubling back oneself, but in my very humble opinion I would lean more towards Czz for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, I believe the scelera of Cza is black, which gives the eye a very dark and muted colouration - certainly in mine, whose eyes appear almost totally black in most lighting. Celeste has a specimen with lighter eyes (which I think I read somewhere is typical of Cza from the Buka area, but I might be wrong), but again, looking at the pictures, the scelera appears significantly darker than the iris.

Secondly, I think that Cza are meant to display 50degree banding across the body. I think this is typical of their markings, but Im going off what I can vaguely recall from an article so again, there is room for error!

Thirdly, they are reported to have a yellow band that depends from the ear opening along the jaw towards the chin. I can see that your female definitely has the bright lemon yellow chin which stretches back across the throat, but I cant make out any yellow around the ear. I think the yellow towards the back of the jaw is significant, as I have another male that has a very yellow chin, but no yellow on the jaw.

The rostral scale does appear to be coloured in the manner of Cza though, which is one of the points of the original Cza description that confused me as all of my skinks appear to have very light and distinctive nose scales!

I re-read one of Sherris past posts, regarding the head scalation. It hadnt really occurred to me before, but when I look at my male Cza and compare him to the male Czz, he seems to have much fewer head scales in comparison and they appear flatter and less defined. Without going to the hassle of actually counting individual scales, I would say just from a distant observation that the Cza appears to have fewer scales at a glance.

Im hoping that Im wrong (theres a good chance!), as I would be very interested to hear about successful Cza/Czz pairings!
Regards, Jo

Im feeling a bit confused, as the report I read on Cza says that "The iris color of Corucia zebrata alfredschmidti does not seem to vary as much as in Corucia zebrata zebrata. The color is almost always a green-yellow mix - at least in Corucia zebrata alfredschmidti from Bougainville. However, Corucia zebrata alfredschmidti from Buka appear to have a more intense green iris.". This suprises me, as my believed Cza male has brown eyes. He is also below the average length (he is 23") and weight (700g), although he is not underweight and is bigger than my other skinks - especially his gigantic head!. On the other hand, he has the banding, and Im pretty sure black sclera as I cant make out any lighter colours in his eyes at all, as well as a pale pink rostral scale. Can I have opinions again as well please?

Jo, you touched on exactly what I was thinking in regards to this ID. I am having trouble identifying what is meant by "black sclera" and one of my twin Cza lacks the banding alltogether. Her eyes are different than the Czz's I have and she is enormous in comparison. I'll post some photo's of the twins to show you what I mean, one of them is almost a blue color with no banding at all and the other is as typical as you can get. I am mostly suspicious due to her size, unusual coloring and her temperament. All this talk just got me wondering. Thanks for the 2 cents!

Kisha

Hiya Kisha,
I think that the sclera would be what appears as the "white" of the eye in humans - the area around the outside of the coloured iris in the centre of the eye. In the pics above of your female, the sclera appears (a slightly off) white colour - the first pic is perfect to get a good look at it! (no matter how I tried to distract my male he always turns his head rather than his eyes to look at things). Having re-read the article, it says that bands may be absent all together in the subspecies (just to be more confusing, lousy skinks lol), so I guess they arent a guarantee - theyre just another handy pointer if 50degree bands ARE present. Id really like to see pics of the twins - as I said, Im not experienced at all, but it does seem that there is some room for variation around the criteria.

Im wondering, could my male be a Czz/Cza hybrid do you think?

Id also love it if someone could point out which are the parietal scales in Cz - I know they run across the rear of the top of the head, but if the ones Im using are correct, my supposed Cza has 7 and my Czzs appear to have way more, so I think Im going wrong somewhere...

Ok, I think this is the twin that typifies the Cza ID. You'll make note of the "cream" color on the chin extending up to the "ear" and the dark coloration of the eye and you can almost see the stripes. The sclera, however, in this picture does not appear to me to be black. I'll post the other twin in a separate post.

K

Jo,

I am virtually positive that your male is a Cza, but if it would put your mind at ease you can try checking with Sherri. I think I cc:ed her on some previous e-mails I sent you. If not, let me know and I'll send you her e-mail address offline. Note that Paulo in France has a female -- maybe you and he can work something out? I think your male may be elderly, however, just from his face (which could also explain his docile personality). Also, my Cza male is smaller than my female as well, but has all the other classic features. I just bought a food scale this weekend, and will try to get some weights on them all soon.

Kisha's female looks to me like she *could* be an intergrade -- she appears to have the 50 degree stripes, but not the black sclera. Is she unusually large? My Cza females have the same "dingy" sort of coloration (the males are much more colorful). But the black sclera are a definitive feature, and the one in the picture doesn't appear to have them. (Note that the eyes don't have to be totally dark, just the sclera -- I just got a rescue skink which I am pretty sure is a Cza male, and his eyes are green with dark grey sclera -- if he survives, I'll try to post some pictures of him).

I have a young female I also believe is an intergrade (Cza father/Czz mother), just based on her coloration and on some comments the breeder made to me when I bought her. He said the father "had a lot of blue" and was "extremely aggressive". At the time, I didn't know anything about Cza's. (Unfortunately, he has long since sold the father).

And I *think* Paulo in France said he bred his Cza female and a Czz male, because he didn't realize they were separate subspecies. So it *appears* to be possible to cross them. But it would be a shame not to keep the subspecies pure, especially considering how few pure Cza's are known in the captive U.S. population. Aside from Sherri's 9, and however many Kisha has, I have 5 (three males and two very elderly females, one of whom I am pretty sure is well past breeding age); there's one (probable male) in a zoo north of here; one male in a privately owned group in Ohio and one male in Illinois or Missouri (I think -- I am in e-mail contact with the owners, but don't recall off the top of my head what states they are in). Which reminds me, I think the fellow in Ohio bred his Cza male with a Czz female as well. That would make another case of cross-breeding.

I have yet to find any other pure Cza females of breeding age in the U.S. (And believe me, I have been looking!)

-- Celeste

Here's a picture of my 1-year-old male, Arjuna -- son of Shiva and Shakti. He, too, shows the classic Cza (male) coloration.

This is Zeke, he has had some trouble shedding in the past and is not as large as his brother. If I didn't know better I wouldn't even think they were related. You can see the "cream" coloring along the chin/ear and the dark eyes, but again in the corner you can see a lighter area that I thought was the sclera. He definitely does not have the stripes, though. I have been using the chin/ear coloring for Id's, I seem to be able to distinguish that better than the eye color. I see the dark olive vs. the more golden color of my others, but I still don't see the "black" sclera. I have no idea about the parietal scales, nor do I have any desire to try to count them It's hard enough trying to get those head shots.

Right now I am sticking with my large female being a Czz with unusual characteristics and size, but it was interesting getting your opinions and showing off my lizards!

Kisha