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Old 03-21-2004, 08:34 PM   #41
Neil Gubitz
In Florida.... when I was thinking about getting into hots when I had my store.... I was obligated to have a $1,000,000 insurance policy in effect at all times.... plus do the thousand hours.... all for handling an animal that can kill you.... I saw no sense in that....

Steve.... If YOU ever get bit by one of your hots.... DON'T go to the Hospital in Hershey.... I hear that their antivenin is all "chocolate-based"!!.... It'll really do a number on your arteries.... lol

Ray.... I didn't know you were in the hospital for that bite.... that explains a LOT!!.... lol

Neil
 
Old 03-21-2004, 08:44 PM   #42
Mustangrde1
As Neil and Ray brought up Florida's Venomous laws I thought they would be an interesting and infomative read for people. If these laws were instituted in other states they may save a few of the bites that occur.

1) Demonstrate no less than one year of substantial, practical experience (to consist of no less than 1000 hours) in the care, feeding, handling, and husbandry of the species
for which the permit is sought, or other species within the same biological order, which are substantially similar in size, characteristics, care and nutritional
requirements to the species for which the permit is sought.

1)For the purposes of demonstrating compliance applicants shall submit documentation of such experience, including: a description of the experience acquired, the dates the experience was obtained, and the specific location( s) where acquired, and references of no less than two individuals having personal
knowledge of your stated experience. Personal reference letters do not need to be authored by venomous reptile permittees. Additional documentation may include records of prior permits for the keeping of venomous reptiles, employment records, or any other competent documentation of the requisite experience.

2) Documented educational experience in zoology or other relevant biological sciences obtained at the college or technical school or above may substitute for upto six months or 500 hours of the required experience.

(3) Shall not have been convicted of a violation of venomous reptile regulations for three years prior to application for such permit.

4) Must be at least 18 years old at the time of application


Scott Bice
 
Old 03-21-2004, 09:07 PM   #43
Mustangrde1
This Might be of some help to you I just went digging through my old Reptile laws and found these to links to the laws.

Penn requires a special permit for people to collect Timber Rattlesnakes. No age is asked for this permit but as you must have a fishing license as well to collect reptiles a 16 year old can obtain this permit and license, So it would stand to reason and logic the State allows for 16 year olds to posses venomous reptiles.

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/

I still wonder why you would allow a minor to take possesion of a venomous reptile and to use a credit card without and adult present though. However the above information may help you to not suffer anything more than a very valuable lesson learned NOT TO SELL TO MINORS.

Scott Bice
 
Old 03-21-2004, 09:55 PM   #44
Wraith
Quote:
Originally posted by Mustangrde1

1) Demonstrate no less than one year of substantial, practical experience (to consist of no less than 1000 hours) in the care, feeding, handling, and husbandry of the species
for which the permit is sought, or other species within the same biological order, which are substantially similar in size, characteristics, care and nutritional
requirements to the species for which the permit is sought.

2) Documented educational experience in zoology or other relevant biological sciences obtained at the college or technical school or above may substitute for upto six months or 500 hours of the required experience.

(3) Shall not have been convicted of a violation of venomous reptile regulations for three years prior to application for such permit.

4) Must be at least 18 years old at the time of application

Ok, #4 is perfectly reasonable. #3 is perfectly reasonable. #2 is well kinda worthless IMHO. Taking a zoology/biology course and trying to substitute that as hours towards educational experience relating to a hot species is a joke. It does not compute. I've taken such college level courses and they don't talk crap about hot snakes other than they are classified as a reptile. I am unsure what you mean by a technical school let alone how that would apply to hot snakes.

#1 sounds good at first glance, but from a practical standpoint it would not work.

You are talking about having to work with a particular hot species 3 hours per day every single day just to meet a minimum 1000 hour per year requirement.

1 year consisting of no less than 1000 hours would insinuate that you would actually prefer that people spent more than 1000 hours in that one year? So that means.... you would like to see what.... 4, 6, 8-hour days every single day working with a particular species?

Even at a minimum 1000 hours it would be impractical for anyone (with a life and a job) to meet that requirement in a single year's time unless the person happened to work a paying job in an animal industry that actually worked with hots on a daily basis and happened to include the species that person might be trying to get a permit for.

I've got a hot snake. Let us assume for the moment that I happened to move to a state where your proposed guideline was in effect and wanted to take my snake with me. This would mean that I would have to apply for a permit to be able to keep my snake. Ok cool. I have no problems with being required to hold a permit. I meet the 2, 3, & 4 requirements right out of the bag.

Now, under your proposed guideline for requirement #1 which is 1 year's experience consisting of no less than 1000 demonstratable hours in order to be considered acceptable enough to earn that permit...

It takes me 20-30 minutes on average to clean my snake's cage once a week: remove dirty carpet and cage furnishings, wipe down cage, put clean carpet in, bleach/scrub water bowl, rinse, refill and put back in the cage, clean ceramic hide house if necessary, clean the dirty carpets and set out to dry for the following week). It takes me all of 2 minutes to drop a couple of dead mice into the cage every other week. That only comes to oh about 30 hours of practical care work related experience earned in a year's time for that snake (or in this case his species). What am I supposed to be doing with the other 970+ hours... harssing the poor snake with unnecessary handling for at least 2.5 hours every single day? Man, I'd be screwed out of ever being able to keep my snake unless I was working with about 25-30 other snakes just like him. I have one, I like my one snake, I don't have a need for more than one let alone a couple dozen of them.


Adrian
 
Old 03-21-2004, 10:01 PM   #45
ms_terese
As far as the credit card...

If it was Visa or Mastercard that was used:

The mother can protest the charges with the issuing bank, but then she will need to agree to prosecute her son for using her card illegally. I don't know how Amex or Discover work, but V/MC instituted that policy years ago.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 10:13 PM   #46
Neil Gubitz
Adrian.... there's a very easy answer to that....

If you don't like the rules.... don't play the game??

The law in Florida says that you have to spend at least 1000 hours working with hots.... you can take as long as you want to do this, with the MINIMUM being one year.... if you want to work 2 hours a week and take ten years to complete your 1000 hours, that's entirely up to you.... I think the law, in this case, is great.... it keeps the novices from hurting themselves and endangering others.... and, if you own a herp store, you could easily end up with free help....

When The Snake Pit was open, and Jewell Howard (who already HAS her hot license) was my manager for a year and a half, we had no less than three people that wanted to help out at the store (with Jewell) learning about hots, and then going back to her house to actually work with them.... it was good for me, because they worked for free, and it helped them build up their hours in order to get their license (even though none of them lasted long enough to get their licenses).... they, too, didn't want to go through all the hours necessary....

The laws in Florida are strict for a reason.... you can abide by them, or not.... it's your choice....

Neil
 
Old 03-21-2004, 10:19 PM   #47
Neil Gubitz
Terese.... you might be mistaken.... you can't prosecute a minor for anything!!.... You would have to sue his parents or guardian.... talk about a Catch-22 ??

It's happened to me.... one of the past members on this site bought over $3000 worth of animals from me in about a year's time.... she used her husband's credit card (her name was NOT on the card).... long story short.... they broke up, the husband charged back EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION she made with EVERY VENDOR she made it with HIS CARD.... the credit card company took all of that money right out of my account 13 MONTHS AFTER THE TRANSACTIONS!!.... She STILL owes me $450.... No charges were ver brought against her....

Neil
 
Old 03-21-2004, 10:50 PM   #48
Suncoast Herpetological
I did a little research and, as insane as it may seem, it appears that there is no regulation at all regarding the sale and ownership of venomous exotics in Pennsylvania. There does not even seem to be an age requirement. The only minimal regulation relates to native species.

Unfreakinbelievable!
 
Old 03-21-2004, 10:56 PM   #49
Vince
can i quote myself

Quote:
Originally posted by Vince
leagalitys and ethics are two differnt things.
 
Old 03-21-2004, 11:24 PM   #50
Wraith
Quote:
Originally posted by Neil Gubitz
Adrian.... there's a very easy answer to that....

If you don't like the rules.... don't play the game??

The law in Florida says that you have to spend at least 1000 hours working with hots.... you can take as long as you want to do this, with the MINIMUM being one year.... if you want to work 2 hours a week and take ten years to complete your 1000 hours, that's entirely up to you.... I think the law, in this case, is great.... it keeps the novices from hurting themselves and endangering others.... and, if you own a herp store, you could easily end up with free help....

You are not reading what I was saying. A proposed guideline was offered on what hot regulations should/could entail in order to get a permit to keep one - it was not stated that it was Florida's regulations...just a set of guidelines that was thought to be good enough to be possibly instituted in other states. What I find hard to comprehend is that the proposed guideline made in Scott's post stipulated that 1 year's demonstratable experience had to consist of no less than 1000 hours...not that it could take 10 years or 20 years to accomplish that goal but no less than 1000 hours in one year's time. I was responding to that statement with a scenario of why I thought it would not realistically work out.

And looking back at that post it would seem it has since been edited as there is an additional paragraph under requirement #1 that was not there previously when I took the time to compose my first message.


Adrian
 

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