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02-14-2009, 07:40 AM
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#11
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Oh No!!
The Zinjanthropus of the snake kingdom.
Hey, congrats on getting one that eats well. Don't wait too long to start your breeding program and I might be looking to purchase a CB from you.
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02-14-2009, 10:32 AM
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#12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokele
Technically, they're not colubrids, but members of their own family, Xenopeltidae. Because they're such an obscure little group of snakes, they aren't always incorporated into studies, but they universally winds up near pythons, though their morphology is substantially more primitive in many ways.
While it's not very technically correct, the best thing to call them would be "primitive snakes".
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You know, Good point.... thanks for correcting that! I dont really know WHERE i got the colubrid bit from * i may have seen them called colubrids randomly on the web?* . I was just kinda... going with it, there. *shrugs* I knew they were not like typical snakes that you find elsewhere due to the way the skull is "put together" and such.
I believe the word most people use is Fossorial ( at least all the pages that DO have information on them, which, to be honest is seriously lacking!). Which, makes sense.
There should be more studies on them... theyre awesome animals, remind me of the Eastern Mud snakes kinda sorta.
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02-14-2009, 10:36 AM
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#13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John E Dove
Oh No!!
The Zinjanthropus of the snake kingdom.
Hey, congrats on getting one that eats well. Don't wait too long to start your breeding program and I might be looking to purchase a CB from you.
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Thanks alot John I really hope that id be successful in breeding them! It would really mean a ton to me!
maybe in the summer ill get a nice big girl and get her all acclimated and such. I want to make sure i get one thats big like this guy. Then im going to be doing some serious research as to the climates where they live, and seeing if i can find out when people find eggs there * or babies at least* and going from there. I want to try to mimic everything i can for them over here.
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02-14-2009, 11:49 AM
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#14
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Quote:
You know, Good point.... thanks for correcting that! I dont really know WHERE i got the colubrid bit from * i may have seen them called colubrids randomly on the web?* . I was just kinda... going with it, there. *shrugs*
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Well, they're in a weird place on the snake family tree that doesn't really accord well with any terms we commonly use. Even "primitive snake" isn't technically right, since no animal is truly primitive (they've all been evolving for exactly the same length of time), but can have primitive traits. But "A snake with primitive osteological and anatomical characters" is a bit of a mouthful.
Quote:
I knew they were not like typical snakes that you find elsewhere due to the way the skull is "put together" and such.
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Here's a link you may like: Full 3D animations of a CAT scanned sunbeam snake skull
Quote:
I believe the word most people use is Fossorial ( at least all the pages that DO have information on them, which, to be honest is seriously lacking!). Which, makes sense. There should be more studies on them... theyre awesome animals, remind me of the Eastern Mud snakes kinda sorta.
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Well, fossorial technically refers to their burrowing (hence the similarity to mud snakes).
As for studies, Nate Kley from SUNY Stonybrook has been using them (along with a wide assortment of other snakes) in his research on feeding. Apparently they're capable of far more jaw expansion than you'd think with a skull like theirs, almost as much as some pythons.
Quote:
maybe in the summer ill get a nice big girl and get her all acclimated and such. I want to make sure i get one thats big like this guy. Then im going to be doing some serious research as to the climates where they live, and seeing if i can find out when people find eggs there * or babies at least* and going from there. I want to try to mimic everything i can for them over here.
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Let me know if you find a scientific paper you need access to; I can get most of the journals in pdf format.
Unfortunately, some guesswork may be involved - a lot of fossorial snakes don't have much fieldwork done on them.
Mokele
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02-14-2009, 12:37 PM
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#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokele
But "A snake with primitive osteological and anatomical characters" is a bit of a mouthful.
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lol i like it! ( but i like the latin for them better than i do the common name too... im weird like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokele
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you know, ive seen those before, the images at least. i never actually LOOKED at the quicktime movies of the slices/scans. Holy COOL. I never opened up my guys mouth to notice that they have two rows of upper teeth! THAT, is wicked! But i did know that their teeth are actually attached to... What are they called? little ligaments? so they move inside the jaw. * im pretty sure im remembering that right* Which is something i thought was really really neat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokele
Well, fossorial technically refers to their burrowing (hence the similarity to mud snakes).
As for studies, Nate Kley from SUNY Stonybrook has been using them (along with a wide assortment of other snakes) in his research on feeding. Apparently they're capable of far more jaw expansion than you'd think with a skull like theirs, almost as much as some pythons.
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Ah, i understand now.
I never really thought about the expansion much. ( would make me wary of feeding large prey) What exactly did he find out? ( if you want to point me to his research, id be happy to look)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokele
Let me know if you find a scientific paper you need access to; I can get most of the journals in pdf format.
Unfortunately, some guesswork may be involved - a lot of fossorial snakes don't have much fieldwork done on them.
Mokele
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Thanks a bunch, i really do appreciate that. It really might come in handy once i start to get looking for the info ( i sporadically do now and then, and have some pages printed up about the weather and such)
I dont mind messing with the guesswork, i plan on talking to some of the others who have bred them as well to see if they will share any information in regards to temperatures the eggs were incubated at and such, and whatever else they might have going for them. Im going to keep notes on it, so i can later put it up somewhere online. Id really really love to see a captive bred population in the states, instead of WC stuff.
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02-14-2009, 03:37 PM
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#16
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Quote:
lol i like it! ( but i like the latin for them better than i do the common name too... im weird like that.
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Oh, I'm with you on that, though I'm rather annoyed by the tendency for them to change so frequently, especially without waiting for approval from the ICZN. The whole "Pantherophis" thing still crops up, and the re-naming was rejected about 2 years ago.
Quote:
you know, ive seen those before, the images at least. i never actually LOOKED at the quicktime movies of the slices/scans. Holy COOL. I never opened up my guys mouth to notice that they have two rows of upper teeth! THAT, is wicked! But i did know that their teeth are actually attached to... What are they called? little ligaments? so they move inside the jaw. * im pretty sure im remembering that right* Which is something i thought was really really neat.
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Actually, most snakes have that. A pair of bones which formerly were the roof of the mouth have been reduced the struts running parallel to the maxilla, and now bear teeth. They're capable of moving independently from the maxilla, and they play a big role in swallowing large prey. There are several muscles and ligaments associated with them, and in vipers, they're part of the complex system that swings the fangs forwards.
You can use this cladogram to see all the other scans they've put in so far (snakes are just lumped in with lizards)
Sadly, they don't have the weirdest one, Bitia hydroides, a bizarre homalopsine snake from SE Asia where instead of enlarging the maxillary teeth like an Amazon Tree Boa, they've enlarged the palatine teeth, which should obstruct feeding. Unfortunately, they're rarely been seen alive, and we only have a handful of specimens, so the best we can figure is that it has something to do with the gobies in their stomachs.
Quote:
I never really thought about the expansion much. ( would make me wary of feeding large prey) What exactly did he find out? ( if you want to point me to his research, id be happy to look)
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Well, it's all preliminary right now, but he's been feeding them things 3+ times their head size with little difficulty. The paper will be out eventually, but he's still gathering the data at the moment.
Quote:
Id really really love to see a captive bred population in the states, instead of WC stuff.
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Ditto; I love obscure and strange species, especially sunbeams, but I've never bumped into any when I've had the time to really care for them.
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02-14-2009, 03:53 PM
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#17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokele
Actually, most snakes have that. A pair of bones which formerly were the roof of the mouth have been reduced the struts running parallel to the maxilla, and now bear teeth. They're capable of moving independently from the maxilla, and they play a big role in swallowing large prey. There are several muscles and ligaments associated with them, and in vipers, they're part of the complex system that swings the fangs forwards.
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you know, now that i think of it.... im being kinda silly. ( actually entirely stupid) Ive been bitten by snakes before, and have noticed the double rows of teeth. I just got... excited, seeing it on the scans. Since i dont really open the snakes mouths all that much. * only on occasion to take debris out, if they got some bedding on their food* *headdesk* Totally forgetting being bitten, and what the heck a bite looks like.
Wow i feel silly....
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