Contact Michael Enriquez to Buy Dead/Sick Animals

Buying the LTC??? Browns was never about saving money. My friend/customer wanted a decent sized pair, and even Vic did not have a pair available. So, we took a chance and ordered what seemed to be an alternative, and got screwed. No matter how you slice it, even though Michael refunded my $700, it still cost me $100 to ship him back his dead, diseased animals.

My friend/customer is now considering a pair of cb redfoots. I told the seller about my experience with the Browns. Here is his comment(This guy is a well known shipper).

I have a deal pending on the redfoots, but as for your burmese, I highly doubt they were LTC animals, but rather recent imports. Burmese are typically kept in unsavory conditions til they ship out of indo and go through alot of stress til the arrive here which causes those parasite blooms which can lead to death unless treated right off the plane. Most importers don't treat them, so buyers like yourself end up getting screwed. I'll let you know if the redfoots don't sell to a reg. customer of mine.

I'll try and see if I can upload the pics of the dead tortoise.

I can't believe the lack of support, and almost, "You deserved a pile of crap" attitude from the jaded group here.

If I ship a tortoise that has not been wormed, it is because it did not need to be wormed. I would never ship a tortoise that needed worming desparately, then argue about taking back the diseased animal on my dime. But, that's just me.

Jerry

Not sure of the process of categorizing the loaded pics. I uploaded four shots to both the member galleries and the turtle galleries.

Question to all:

If you received an adult tortoise dead, and full of worms to the point that it could not survive a 6 hour Delta Dash Flight, would you be willing to keep this animal in your house where it could contaminate your entire group of tortoises?

I raise pPardalis and have some radiateds. The last thing I would want is a diseased animal. I could not get Michael Enriquez back his tortoises fast enough once I saw what was coming out of the dead animal.

I know, some of the morons here will say I should expect to receive animals in this condition, even after Michael Enriquez kept telling me how he has had them for 18 months without any problems.

A true ASS is someone that accepts stuff like this.

Originally Posted by tortaboy

Not sure of the process of categorizing the loaded pics. I uploaded four shots to both the member galleries and the turtle galleries.

Image tags, one of the options avaliable to you while replying, also listed on the bottom of the page for each photo you uploaded, easy to copy and paste into messages. Your four are below.

Unfortunately, to my eyes, the photos aren't really able to show the required details to really draw a firm conclusion about the contradictory statements.

Michael says the sale was made with the express understanding that the animals had not been treated for parasites and they they were apparantly healthy at the time of shipping.

Jerry says that the condition of the animals was such that their health was obviously compromised and that they were misrepresented at the time of sale.

Without a necropsy being done, the exact cause of death for the animal which was DOA is going to be surrounded by some doubt. The photos don't seem to clearly show the kinds of overt indicators that could be pointed towards as signs of either positive or negative health, so the highly subjective descriptions given by the two involved and opposed parties are all the reader has to make a judgement on.

One other small item of note; Jerry, the rules for posting in this section of the site disallow anonymous third party quotations. You'll need to name your "well known shipper" if you want to place their words here to evidence your position.

1. What details would you like to see that you are claiming can only be answered with a "Necropsy"? Are you a Vet?

2. What "Overt indicators" are you looking for to show "Positive or Negative Health"?

3. Even with a Necropsy showing conclusively that the worm bloom killed this poor animal, you would bring up the Michael admitted "These animals were not treated...."

THAT BEING THE CASE, PLEASE STATE YOUR POINT FOR WANTING TO SEE THE PICS IN THE FIRST PLACE??????? DID YOU NOT BELIEVE A TORTOISE DIED???

A)See the pink things coming out the ass of the tortoise...those are worms. Is there any doubt about that?

B)Large numbers of Worms coming out of the rear of a tortoise are not an "INDICATOR OF GOOD HEALTH". Would you agree?

c)The tortoise arrived dead after same day Delta Dash Flight. There was absolutely no crushing of the box, not even any small dents. Any conclusions to be drawn???

In my experience, Tortoises are hearty animals. Especially adult tortoises. They do not just "Die" in a matter of hours for no reason.

You guys are so concerned about stupid things like rules on "third party quotations" that you miss the entire point. As long as you support people shipping sick/diseased animals, and do not do everything you can to remove them from the industry...this will continue.

The Internet is a great resource that can be used so these kinds of things do not continue. This was not a case of "He said/She said"...Michael told me up front about the health of the animal, that he had it 18 months(Although strangely enough this "Healthy" animal dies on a 6 hour plane ride)???

After 18 months LTC, is it not reasonable to assume this animal is probably safer than a recent import?

My only point, and I don't know how many more ways I can make it is:

If you are going to ship dead/diseased animals, expect consequences. Customers should not be responsible for paying to ship back your dead or diseased animals.

If you are not willing to take care of the negative situation you caused, expect negative reviews.

Wow. The only conclusion that I can come to is that the buyer in this deal should be given a much wider berth than the seller in any potential future dealings.

Originally Posted by tortaboy

1. What details would you like to see that you are claiming can only be answered with a "Necropsy"? Are you a Vet?

A cause of death. No.

2. What "Overt indicators" are you looking for to show "Positive or Negative Health"?

Well, with tortoises my inclination would be to look for any crusting, swelling, discoloration or discharge from the mouth, nostrils and eyes, open sores, missing digits which have not healed over, lost scales, damage to or signifigant irregularities in the surface condition of the shell and- especially important when there's a strong suspicion of parasite loads or malnutrition- the general weight of the animal, generally most easily visible at the base of the legs.

3. Even with a Necropsy showing conclusively that the worm bloom killed this poor animal, you would bring up the Michael admitted "These animals were not treated...."

No. Not really. If a necropsy indicated conclusively that a parasite load was directly responsible for the animal's death, there would have been numerous secondary symptoms that insicated the severity of the the problem and he would have been verifiabally guilty of shipping an ill animal misrepresented as a healthy one. But you never got a necropsy done so... you can't really argue the point one way or the other, can you?

THAT BEING THE CASE, PLEASE STATE YOUR POINT FOR WANTING TO SEE THE PICS IN THE FIRST PLACE??????? DID YOU NOT BELIEVE A TORTOISE DIED???

You claimed that both animals were visibly sick and that his choice in labeling them as healthy and shipping them was fradulent and negligent. I was asking for photos to verify your statements, since Michael's statements contradicted yours.

A)See the pink things coming out the ass of the tortoise...those are worms. Is there any doubt about that?

I see pink things. Fuzzy... fuzzy... out of focus could be anything pink things. The quality of the photographs is not sufficient to identify them. There was no necropsy done to verify a parasite load or identify a parasite species. Thus there is, by definition, doubt.

B)Large numbers of Worms coming out of the rear of a tortoise are not an "INDICATOR OF GOOD HEALTH". Would you agree?

I would agree. Now prove that there were large numbers of worms.

c)The tortoise arrived dead after same day Delta Dash Flight. There was absolutely no crushing of the box, not even any small dents. Any conclusions to be drawn???

No, no conclusions. The conditions you describe do not prove or disprove a cause of death or indicate anything one way or the other about the health of the surviving tortoise.

In my experience, Tortoises are hearty animals. Especially adult tortoises. They do not just "Die" in a matter of hours for no reason.

They can be, although certain issues will cause a pretty rapid deterioration. So where was that necropsy report that identified the reason the tortoise died?

You guys are so concerned about stupid things like rules on "third party quotations" that you miss the entire point.

It's a valuable rule. An important rule. And a very easy rule to follow. Please attribute the statements that you were quoting to a source.

As long as you support people shipping sick/diseased animals, and do not do everything you can to remove them from the industry...this will continue.

Good point. The problem is that Party A here said one thing and Party B said that Party A was wrong. Neither has been able to provide much of substance to evidence their own position. Show me something that makes me believe you over him and I'll happily blacklist him. If he shows me something that makes me believe him over you, I'll happily blacklist you instead.

After 18 months LTC, is it not reasonable to assume this animal is probably safer than a recent import?

When you were also told that it had never been treated? No- what is reasonable to assume is that the animal in question was likely to have the same issues as a fresh import, eighteen months advanced. He says it appeared outwardly healthy, you say it did not. One of you really needs to... well... prove it.

The only pictures I have of the torts before they where sent really do not show any good signs of health or unhealth...I will post them here and now. I will also get a picture of the "outwardly" healthy female today.

Seamus,

You are ridiculous. Those are worms, I saw them myself, I have pictures of worms, and you say the only thing that will prove to you that worms exist is a Necropsy?

And if a Necropsy was provided, you would then say, "Well, Michael said the torts were not treated".

What the hell do you think those pink wiggly things were? Pizza?

Jerry are your feet sore the way you keep blasting them they must be.

Hey I saw the blurry photos and there was some little pinkish things there . I really don't doubt that you received a dead Tort but what killed it is something we don't know.. Before you get you panties in a knot you shouldn't have received a dead animal . As I and others have also said I feel you should be repaid for shipping the other one back..

I do wonder, you knew the animal hadn't been treated so did you expect it to be parasite free?

The death of the animal is on the seller but what killed the animal is something no one will now know. You say parasites killed it, that it was so sickly it couldn't survive the trip. Hey that's a possibility, just as it is possible that something happened during the plane ride that killed the one and left the other in the condition you saw, we just don't know . As far as you being compensated it doesn't matter what killed it you didn't receive what you paid for.. But as for you saying that Michael's animals are diseased ETC you need to provide proof to back those statements up but you can't because you didn't have a necropsy done on the animal. In case you don't know having parasites isn't a disease so unless you have some proof that the animals had a disease you might want to refrain from saying they do before you get your tit in a wringer over it.

So why don't you calm down and stop attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you 100 percent. Your attitude isn't making me or it seems others here feel all warm and fuzzy about you nor does it make people want to help.. Randy