BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

In 2009 I purchased an 07 BHB Spider 100% het Hypo male from Chris Huffman. Chris is a good friend of mine and we've done numerous trades etc over the years. I know Chris has done a number of transactions with Brian and the Spider came directly from BHB.

I bred the male Spider to two unrelated virgin 100% het Hypo females. One was a 'normal' 100% het Hypo from Mike Wilbanks. The other female is a new co-dom 100% het Hypo that was produced by Chris Huffman. I got a total of 13 eggs from the two females and sold the male to Cliff Edwards prior to the eggs hatching out. All 13 hatched and there were no visual Hypos.

I contacted Cliff to let him know what had happened. I reassured him that I just hit bad odds and that the male would prove out for him. On 9/29/09 I sent an email to Brian and Cliff just so everyone was on the same page at that point. I got a response from Brian the following day.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

Sorry to hear you has such bad odds. I'm hoping that's all it is and next year you'll go the other way, but I do appreciate you keeping me in the loop. Please stay in touch about it going forward. Thanks, Brian

Fast forward to April and Cliff hatches out his first clutch from this BHB Spider to another unrelated 100% het Hypo. Cliff got five eggs, for a total of 18 sired by this male, and again there were no visual Hypos. April 10th I sent Brian another email, letting him know the status of these eggs hatching out. I raised the possibility of the Spider not being a het after all. And again I got a response the very next day.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

HI,

Of course there is always a chance of something terrible like that happening. I'm not going to lie and say there is no way. It does sound like with those odds something is wrong? Lets talk on the phone and see if there is anything we can do to try to figure this out. I always stand behind my stuff and I will do my best to make it right. Call me anytime this week before Wednesday, I'll be out of town for five days after that on business. Talk soon, Brian

I personally hate doing things over the phone, especially when there is a disagreement, as there is no evidence after the fact. It took multiple tries to get Brian on the phone but he seemed willing to 'make things right'. He basically stated that I would have to wait until July or August when he had things hatching out. I wasn't happy with that answer but I didn't have much of a choice.

I emailed Brian July 15th just to see how things were looking and got no response. I waited a few weeks and tried again August 4th and again got no response. Called multiple times, left voicemails and two messages with Lori and still got no response from Brian. I sent another email August 18th and got an auto-response that he was in Daytona until the 25th of August. So I wait again and send ANOTHER email September 4th and what do you know?!? No response... starting to see a pattern here? Another email sent September 14th and I finally get a response from Brian. So after five emails, multiple phone calls and messages left and it takes TWO MONTHS to get a response from Brian.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

Sorry I have not been ignoring intentionally. I have been out of town mor ethen in town and when I have been in town I have been swamped trying to get things in control. To be honest Lori has not given me any messages from you, but that's probably because she see how frazzled I am over the past couple of months. I am heading to Canada tomorrow for the Toronto show. I will be back on Monday afternoon. Lets try to touch base Tuesday or Wednesday and see what we can work out. I am not trying to avoid it. Thanks, Brian

At this point, from September 14 to September 28 I did get Brian to respond to a few of my emails and we tried to work a deal out. Brian wanted to just give me a credit for the lone animal that didn't prove. I think that's an absurd thing to offer as what I'm out are the lost clutches. Not only did I have the potential to make 09 Honeybees but I also missed any shot at multiple gene crosses with the new co-dom. It's not just the monetary loss but a real setback for the co-dom project. I don't feel a 2010 animal or two makes up for what was lost but I wanted to compromise and get this behind me.

On September 28th I responded to his email with a list of morphs that would work with what I have but I got no response. I sent another email October 5th and got this response on the 11th.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

Just got back from Tinley late last night. I'll be putting an inventory list together and also updating the website. I'll have both done by the end of the week and then you can choose from there. Talk soon, Brian

Only Brian didn't send me a list at the end of the week nor contact me in any way. So again I send another email on October 20th asking about the inventory. And here's the response I got on October 22nd.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

So sorry, I have had a tough week.lol I am working on the last parts of te list today and should have it finished by tomorrow. Sorry for the delay! Talk soon, Brian

Want to take a wild guess as to what happened next?? That's right... no list, no email, no contact yet again. I sent Brian emails again on October 27th, November 2nd, November 9th and again got no response. So on September 12th I sent Brian another email.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

And now three more weeks have passed since you said you should have the list "finished by tomorrow". Not to mention no response to my last three emails, but I should be used to that by now. I'm absolutely disgusted with the way you have treated me in this situation and can't believe you run a business this way. If I sold someone a het that *didn't prove out* I would bend over backwards to make it right for them. You act like I'm bothering you. I don't know what else to say to you as nothing seems to make any difference and you never follow through with anything you say you're going to do anyway. - David

I think that about sums it up. July/August has long since passed but I still don't have anything. Brian has plenty of time to list snakes for sale, go to shows, write blogs, make videos... everything but stand behind an animal he sold. Any 'good guy' breeder would have made this right months ago. You've got how many thousands of ball pythons and you can't send me one of them to fix a huge error you made that cost me potentially thousands?? Pretty lame if you ask me.

Wait, hold on. So someone else bought this from Brian, and then you bought it from that person? So how is it Brian's responsibility anymore? Should we now be going after the original breeder after the snake has passed hands multiple times? I guess I should start writing to some of the big leopard gecko and cornsnake suppliers then, because their snakes are at my local petstores and are skinny as heck and lethargic!

Alex, there's a lot of difference in the condition of a snake and it's genetics. The genes cannot change no matter who owns it, or what it's fed.

The OP was sold a snake that appears to NOT have the genetics it was supposed to have and that has set his breeding program back considerably. Since it's only been 3 cluches there is some outside chance of just REALLY bad odds, but at this point in time, most people would say it's more likely that it does not carry the hypo gene.

BHB really should make it right in some way, better than just the original purchase price, especially since you've kept in touch with him throughout the issues. I hope he makes it right for you, I've only heard good things about them.

There are a few things that bother me about this, and none of it has to do with Brian at BHB.

I understand that you got 13 eggs from pairing what essentially was a het to het breeding. You only have a 25% chance of getting a visible morph out of any het to het breeding. Granted, it's unusual that you didn't get a visible morph from 13 eggs, but just because you have a 25% chance at winning the lottery with each egg doesn't mean that you won't strike out. 13 eggs isn't really a huge sample size when you get right down to it, because even with 13 eggs, only 3 could have been visible morphs according to probability.

The fact that Brian was willing to speak with you despite not actually selling you the snake I think speaks volumes for Brian. Considering he runs one of the largest breeding operations in the world, I think he makes an obvious concerted effort to stay as in touch with his customers as possible. Seems to me that he was more than willing to work with you (which he technically doesn't have to do because he didn't sell you the snake directly, so he made no money off of you), but you got impatient.

Try breeding that spider het hypo to a ghost to improve your odds at getting a hypo (from 25 to 50%), and then I think you'll have a valid argument that your animal is not het hypo.

Originally Posted by Alex G

Wait, hold on. So someone else bought this from Brian, and then you bought it from that person? So how is it Brian's responsibility anymore? Should we now be going after the original breeder after the snake has passed hands multiple times? I guess I should start writing to some of the big leopard gecko and cornsnake suppliers then, because their snakes are at my local petstores and are skinny as heck and lethargic!

I figured this would be brought up by someone coming to BHB's defense right away. Chris Huffman isn't a random guy unknown to BHB. They have done multiple business dealings together and if this was an issue Brian should have said so from the start. It wasn't an issue and that's why Brian said he would 'do something' to make this right.

I'm curious and for the sake of better understanding why this hasn't been resolved yet - what $ value do you believe you should be compensated for?

There are multiple incompatable lines of hypo ball pythons. For some reason mostn people have come to believe that all ghost lines are compatable and this is certainly not true. I have even seen identical looking visible ghosts bred together and produce all normal offspring. It is true that most hypo lines are compatible but the fact that some are not opens the possibility that the animal BHB sold is in fact het hypo, and that the problem may simply be that your hets are from an incompatible line.

I am not going to defend BHB but the incompatibility scenario is certainly worth mentioning.

Nick

I've been on Fauna since 2003 so I know how things work around here. I know BHB is a huge breeder and lots of people love them and are going to come to Brian's defense.

The snake didn't prove, Brian agreed it didn't prove and agreed to work out a deal. If you are going to come in and say "Well let's just ignore everything Brian said in his emails and focus on how we can get him out of this." then there's not much I can do. You guys can defend him all you want but facts are facts.

I got no response from Brian from the past four emails I've sent him since October 27. I emailed him today about this thread and I got a response in 13 minutes. Pretty amazing coincidence right?

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

So this is how you think we'll fix it. I was happy to work with you on things. I'm sorry you feel that you'll make some difference by trying to slander my name. If that's the way you think you will make out the best I wish the best for you. Brian

And my response.

Originally Posted by David Bellis

What a joke. This is the first time I get a response from you in nearly a month. How long is a reasonable amount of time for me to wait on you to do something??? How I *thought* I would fix it is by trying to work with you but you IGNORE most of my emails and phone calls. What else am i supposed to do??? You gave me no options. I'm not the bad guy here Brian, all you had to do was follow through with what you said any time in the past THREE TO FOUR MONTHS. You sold the animal that wasn't a het and you've done NOTHING to make it right. So I take it now you're saying you're not going to do anything you said in your previous emails and the animals you sell as hets are not guaranteed? - David

I have to be honest here i have bought many many bps from brian hets and visuals. All the hets have proved out!! Brian is an awsome guy to deal with!! I've never heard of him not doing the right thing buy anybody, but i'm not so sure the right thing here is to swap out a snake he didn't sell somebody.

Originally Posted by Nick Mutton

There are multiple incompatable lines of hypo ball pythons. For some reason mostn people have come to believe that all ghost lines are compatable and this is certainly not true. I have even seen identical looking visible ghosts bred together and produce all normal offspring. It is true that most hypo lines are compatible but the fact that some are not opens the possibility that the animal BHB sold is in fact het hypo, and that the problem may simply be that your hets are from an incompatible line.

I am not going to defend BHB but the incompatibility scenario is certainly worth mentioning.

Nick

Fair point but the male has been bred to three completely unrelated 100% het Hypos. Brought up in emails in 2009:

Originally Posted by David Bellis

Thanks Brian. I didn't ask what line of Hypos that Spider came from. I know I've read about incompatible lines but haven't seen anything specific about it that I recall. My buyer is really nervous about the whole thing and he wants lineage info. Anything you could provide that I could pass along would be great. Thanks. - David

And Brian's response.

Originally Posted by Brian@BHB

All of our lines are from Africa, but we have bred most of them to the Bell and Nerd line and they have been compatible. Wish I had more info then that, but we have five or six lines that we have bred to each other as well as those other two lines and they have always produced for us. Let me know if I can help in any other way. Thanks, Brian