BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

One of the things that I have been thinking about for a bit, and pondered over a cup of coffee and some aquarium gazing, is the comments about a breeder being held responsible regardless of how many times the animal changes hands. While it can be said (and was) that genetics don't change(If it was a het, it always is a het.), we also have to take into consideration that our knowledge of the genetics does change. As soon as one person proves that the animal is not a het. the liability stops there. Whoever files the initial claim, or if there is no claim, the last person to own the animal should be compensated. The het did not prove for Cliff, but David had eggs, or at least gravid females. If David had held onto the male until he proved it, he wouldn't be in a position to owe Cliff anything. Also, a waiting period equivalent to a proper quarantine at Cliff's place would certainly have given David time to hatch the eggs and see that none were hypos as well.

Not Defending anyone here just stating my opinion on it .


Well the fact that breeding het x het isnt always going to produce every time you breed them together . you could breed it 3 years in a row het x het and not prove it out , but take 1 year and breed it to the visual morph and produce it that year .
before you can say the animal DIDN'T PROVE OUT you need to breed it to the visual morph . then and only then you can make the claim .

and as far as the time frame about "Finish Tomorrow " or whatever i been talking with Brian For 3 weeks now (or at least trying to talk to him) on a trade deal . and its next to impossible cause of him being so busy .

Honestly until you breed that Het to a Visual i dont see how you can just jump to the claim it didn't prove out . All the years i have been doing this the Biggest Warning i have always heard was if you breed het x het your odds are slim .. Thats why all the bigger breeders tell you , your best off to breed a Het x Visual pairing . JMO

Originally Posted by David Bellis

There's no secrecy but you can keep defending BHB and coming up with conspiracies all you would like.

I didn't post it originally because it isn't relevant to the situation except in the minds of the people looking for something to attack me with.

Funny how no one is calling for Brian to respond here. Oh wait, that's right, he's the big breeder and is obviously right 100% of the time. What was I thinking?

Since when does asking questions to fill in some gaps constitute attacking someone?

Asking the value that Brian agreed to compensate you is relevant, if you weren't happy with it, as you stated.

There's no secrecy but you can keep defending BHB and coming up with conspiracies all you would like.

I didn't post it originally because it isn't relevant to the situation except in the minds of the people looking for something to attack me with.

Funny how no one is calling for Brian to respond here. Oh wait, that's right, he's the big breeder and is obviously right 100% of the time. What was I thinking?

I'm not sure why you think throwing insults at anyone who questions you is appropriate, you say you know how the BOI works, yet you get defensive and act paranoid if additional information is requested?? I have not tried to defend Brian as you imply. I am just asking questions that several others asked as well. You should not bother bringing a post to the BOI if you do not want to face a little scrutiny yourself.

Originally Posted by DaveyFig

If a breeder has to supply everyone who claims to have animals that were produced by them, and had multiple clutches they want compensation for, then scammers have at it indeed. Now that the the animal has been "proven" to not be a het, nobody after Cliff gets compensation right? If YOU had waited to prove it, it would be nobody after you.

Originally Posted by TheVipersHouse

before you can say the animal DIDN'T PROVE OUT you need to breed it to the visual morph . then and only then you can make the claim .

Both very excellent points and very well put.

David made me aware of this thread and I just thought I would add some info about the original purchase/sale to David.

David and I have known each other for many years. I have also worked with Brian for many years, buying many thousands of dollars of balls from him, and I want to keep my relationship with both as good as I possibly can. So I will just lay out details as best as I can remember them around the original male.

David and I regularly exchange emails about our breeding plans and what we have for sale and so on. So I was talking to David about our plans, he says he's thinking of selling a bigger Pied female and I say I think I would like to try and get her from you. We discuss and settle on a price, I believe $3000. At this same time I'm also working on a relatively large purchase from BHB, I don't remember the exact animals involved but I know a Mojave Spider was part of the deal so it wasn't a small order (remember this was a few years back so prices were higher). David said he too had talked to BHB about purchasing a Spider Het Ghost male and Brain had quoted a price to him of I believe at the time $1750.

So I tell David I will call Brian and see how much I could get the Spider Het Ghost male for if I add it to my existing order thinking that I may get a price break due to the size of the existing order. David says great, if you can get it for less than $1750 and I wanted to buy it that he would credit me the $1750 towards the big pied female. So I call Brian (even telling him that it was for David) and he says I can add the spider het ghost male for $1500 so basically it works out for everybody. Brian sells another snake on an order to me, David sells a pied and gets a spider het ghost that he wanted, and I get the big pied female and save $250 over what I would have had to pay for her outright.

Brian ships the order containing the spider het ghost male, I get him in and turn around and ship him right on to David since he was never really for me. David can keep me honest but I believe I have sent David a copy of the receipt from BHB for the original purchase. I was not provided a photo ID from BHB, but I also never asked for a phot ID as I have a long relationship with Brian so the thought didn't even cross my mind.

I haven't made it all the way through this thread yet, but I did see one post accusing me of ripping off David. To that all I can say is No Way! To be 100% forthright I would have preferred David had bred the het male to a homozygous female before going this far. I hope that doesn't offend David but I do feel that way. I have missed on het x het clutches myself before proving them the following year. And this year I even missed on a clown x het pairing that had produced 4 clowns for me over the last 2 years, granted the clutch was small this year (4 eggs and only 2 made it). Another very close friend of mine missed for 3 straight years trying to make Piebalds from Hets before hitting a pied.

I know this isn't proof of anything and I think my reputation on these boards supports that I strive to be very professional and honest in my dealings with everybody. And David and Brian are essentially my main two suppliers of animals so it is and always has been in my best interest to be completely honest and straight forward with both of them and I would never do anything to either of them (or anybody else) to jeopardize that. Between the two of them I would guess that perhaps half of my collection comes from animals directly obtained from them.

I believe that is all the detail I have to add to this thread, in my book both David and BHB are still Great people to deal with and I hope I laid out the details as completely and impartially as I could.

Thanks.

That's the story I've heard... Definitely plausible... Brian??

A few questions/points for the OP

I think the reason people were asking what type of compensation you were asking for was to make sure you were seeking fair compensation. If you were looking for $10,000 in compensation, that wouldn't seem like a fair request. The amount you stated when you finally posted seems, to me, reasonable, and judging by the response from brian you posted, he didn't seem to think it was unreasonable either.

I understand that you are saying brian knows the original buyer well enough to know this is not a scam, but step back and look at from outside your string of events-people are going to look at this situation with a bit of skepticism. You have a large, well known breeder being called out on a snake from someone who did not originally buy it from him and that does not still own the animal in question. You have to admit, from the outside looking in, it smells of scam. That being said, after reading through everything, i don't think it is a scam.

Did brian know you no longer actually own the animal in question when you contacted him? I understand it is extremely frustrating to have such a difficult time getting resolution on this, but if Brian knew that you did not originally purchase the animal, you no longer have the animal, and you are seeking compensation, and he was even willing to work with you at all, it has to say something about his character. Are the others invovled seeking any compensation?

finally, if Brian does give you compensation, and next season that male proves out (stranger things have happened), would you make mention of it on here and send the snakes he gave you back? Not trying to jump on you, just curious.

Thanx Chris for the logistics of the deal.

When I asked for a Desert cross, or something in that price range, that was with a kick back in mind.

I understand and kind of forgot about that kick back idea.

What is 'kick back"? Just a little additional cash for a higher end animal?

Originally Posted by JBartolett

finally, if Brian does give you compensation, and next season that male proves out (stranger things have happened), would you make mention of it on here and send the snakes he gave you back? Not trying to jump on you, just curious.

That was something I was actually thinking about and wondering. Because if it proves out for your friend, then Brian really owed you nothing in the way of "making up" for your not producing any visual animals. It would have just been bad luck.