Respiratory virus in ball pythons...

Originally Posted by snake5007

Bobby asked why you're vet thinks this virus is related to rabies, Jen. He also asked why it's being compared to rabies and considering none of your snakes were bitten by something with rabies, i can see his point.

Read the post I just made, above yours...........

Here's a link to a similar thread:http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58793


I'm not sure if this is the same thing, but it's similar.

Originally Posted by Cat_72

Read the post I just made, above yours...........

I think we were typing at the same time. I also read into it the same way that Bobby did.

Well, I understand what the Vet is doing... going into uncharted territory here. I'm sure certain ideas will evolve as more information is discovered. It's more of a relief that the virus not be airbourne... I seriously hope that proves to be the case. That would mean separate room/building quarantine, maintaining your closed collection before caring for the Quarantine animals & a thorough wash/disinfect for the keeper may work.

Once we know how it is passed, we'll have a better understanding on how to contain it. Jen thanks for sharing about this.

As for attempting to determine "safe zones" I hope folks don't seriously think that this can be done. The fact that this has been around for awhile & that not all folks are at full disclosure when it's their collection... the community as a whole needs to take precaution. Be though with quarantine & sanitation...

All the Best- Deb

I generally try and mind my own business, but I feel there is an awful lot of BS floating around the various forums at the moment. So I will attempt to clarify for the few rational humans that are floating around the place.

The reality is that Rhabdoviruses (all 200+ of them, why is rabies an acceptable comparison?) have been around for a fairly long time. And yes, for those who are offended that Texas keeps getting brought up, that is where they were found originally in the US in a study that showed snake populations had a relationship to the virus. (see citation1 below). This is important, because knowing where a virus came from allows you to look at the conditions that fostered the original form. However, I'll also point out that we have also seen reptiles imported from various parts of the world that have also had forms of the virus (as far back as 20 years ago). I'll post that abstract below, as well.

Why does everyone keep expecting Jen to know something about the virus, when even the pathologists are still struggling to understand rhabdo. As a farther note, there has been a case of an airborne rhabdo, but it was written off as an anomaly since it was in a cave in texas where bats were and had flourished for a very long time. Otherwise airborne transmission is very unlikely.


Abstract 1 (for you science geeks like me) From Arch. Virol. 1979

Viruses isolated from reptiles: identification of three new members of the family Rhabdoviridae.
Monath TP, Cropp CB, Frazier CL, Murphy FA, Whitfield SG.

The growth of four viruses isolated from lizards in Brazil (Marco, Chaco, and Timbo viruses) and Australia (Almpiwar virus) was studied in a variety of continuous cell lines of mammalian, reptilian, amphibian, and piscine origin. Although replication was found in certain cell lines derived from the coldblooded species, cytopathic effect (CPE) was absent or minimal and growth was less than or equal to that in mammalian cells. Those observations appear to limit the value of poikilothermic cells for primary isolation of viruses from field-collected, cold-blooded vertebrates or arthropods that feed upon them. The four reptilian viruses were found to be naturally occurring temperature sensitive agents, with optima for growth of approximately 30 degrees C. Electron microscope studies showed three of the viruses (Marco, Chaco, and Timbo) to be new members of the family Rhabdoviridae. Marco virus particles were conically shaped and resembled bovine ephemeral fever virus, and two lyssaviruses (Kotonkan and Obodhiang). Chaco and Timbo viruses were cylindrical viruses resembling other rhabdoviruses with particle lengths longer than the prototype VSV. No serologic relationships were found in cross complement fixation tests between these viruses, Marco virus, and 34 other rhabdoviruses.

PMID: 90494 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Citation 1

the PDF is too big to attach, so here's another abstract....

J Gen. Virol. 1986

Identification and characterization of Bahia Grande, Reed Ranch and Muir Springs viruses, related members of the family Rhabdoviridae with widespread distribution in the United States.
Kerschner JH, Calisher CH, Vorndam AV, Francy DB.

Sixteen virus isolates with similar biological characteristics were obtained from salt-marsh mosquitoes collected in south Texas in 1974. When compared antigenically, these and 13 other isolates from mosquitoes collected between 1972 and 1979 in west Texas, New Mexico, Louisiana, Colorado and North Dakota were shown to be related but not identical. Three distinct serotypes were determined: Bahia Grande (prototype strain TB4-1054), Reed Ranch (TB4-222) and Muir Springs (76V-23524). When examined by electron microscopy, these three viruses were shown to be rhabdoviruses. Structural analysis of the prototype strain of Bahia Grande virus from Texas revealed five proteins. Comparative oligonucleotide fingerprint maps showed 51 to 86% sharing of the large oligonucleotides between Bahia Grande virus (strain TB4-1054) and 11 other antigenically related isolates but not with Muir Springs virus (strain 76V-23524), an antigenically distinct isolate from mosquitoes collected in Colorado. A serological survey for antibody to Bahia Grande virus showed that humans, cattle, sheep, reptiles and wild mammals from south Texas had neutralizing antibodies to this virus.

PMID: 2872270 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And please, I beg you, resist the urge to pick out random phrases and shout A-HA if you have no idea what an oligonucleotide is, or you majored in liberal arts in school.

Kat, THANK YOU for posting some information. I'm printing all of that off for my vet -- odds are he'll know it or be able to find it, but just in case...it would be good to have it.

The post on that cornsnake forum about the ball python is EXACTLY what my snakes hit at the end stages. Bleeding from the lung, body swelling as their lung and kidneys became inflammed and hemorrhaged. I took a couple pictures of Amazon right before I tried to save her, and that is what she looked like, both her chest cavity and her kidneys:












Bobby, first off, I have to sincerely apologize for the first sentence in my reply to you. I have been extremely stressed out by this whole thing and it has left me very short-tempered and blunt towards people that do not deserve it. So I am sorry for being that rude to you.

As I mentioned in my post, the airborne theory was from the beginning. The rhabdovirus theory is most recent. My vet is not comparing this disease to rabies whatsoever -- what he said to me is that it sounds to be a rhabdovirus, which is related to rabies (meaning it is the family that rabies is part of). There are many different diseases within that category.

Kelli, I absolutely don't doubt that it is all over the U.S. -- especially with how many people aside from you have contacted me to tell me about so-and-so and another so-and-so who had this and kept it quiet. That just can't be done anymore. That isn't fair -- big breeder or small hobbyist, everyone deserves to have information about something that has the potential to wipe out their collection and the thousands of dollars they put into it.

The het G-stripe female passed away yesterday afternoon (12/14). I gave her her second injection the night before and she seemed to still be hanging in there...but I found her dead at about 1:30pm that afternoon. She is now frozen and waiting to be dropped off. That is the end of all the sick snakes -- so far, no others are showing symptoms and I hope it remains that way. Still no word on any test results, but I get the feeling these are not simple and may take a couple weeks.

I'm very sorry to hear that you've lost another animal, Jen. I was really hoping she'd pull through for you.

A couple of interesting articles I've found while doing some research....while both of these are types of rhabdovirus found in fish, I found them particularly interesting.

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factshe...c_necrosis.pdf

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factshe...septicemia.pdf

After reading all of those pages on Paramyxovirus, I am going to ask my vet to start doing the titers on the rest of my animals and perhaps try to get ahold of that Colombovac -- every case of someone using it proved successful, even though it is meant for birds. I want to try that if anyone else shows symptoms -- or if anyone comes back positive for the antibody levels suggesting infection.

Virology is at best a field unto itself. Those abstracts are a good read, but even an atmospheric physics major (with a minor in bio) like myself knows what an oligonucleotide is... even so I would be the last to say "A-ha". Too much still to be found out here.

Still, I am curious to know how this particular strain of rhabdovirus replicates along with other particulars. Sorry Jen to hear you lost another girl, was hoping she'd pull through for you.

Jen,
I have been reading your thread for the past few days and want to tell you how sorry I am for what you are going through. It is any herp owners nightmare. I think you are very couragious and responsible to put this on the open forum, as you well know, there are too may that would rather hide what is happening as opposed to letting it be known so others can benefit from what you will learn from this tragedy.

I am very sorry that your het G-stripe also succumed to whatever this is. I wish you the best. Keep your chin up, I know that has to be hard right now.

Best,
Dianne