Ashley Caspillo-SakaraGT4/Sakara *Possible Buyer Beware!*

The two main players in that sideshow have been removed...if anybody wishes to join them, post up. Otherwise, let this thread stay on topic.

Originally Posted by deborahbroadus

Someone has a necropsy document that denotes IBD in their collection and subsequent deaths are noted...but there is no proof?

A simple matter to take that name down and check IDs to take a stand on being proactive is seen as being "drama llamas?"

All anyone has to do is THEIR part instead of making this situation about possible decisions on every other "Joe Blow's" part..if one person makes a conscious decision to face those facts outlined above and in the post and decides that there is enough evidence that denotes possible danger if Ashley attends, perhaps we can get something accomplished instead of having another "Jeff & Christina" situation in which too many people choose to do nothing.

Check ID's? Deb, I like you and respect you but that's ridiculous. Think about it, should all shows around the country require ID checks to see if any of the people paying admission are on some "black list" someone or someone(s) comes up with? Look, it's good that the information is out about her collection and what has gone down. It is important to get the word out about her, but checking ID's at the door of every show is just not right. I liken that to having to show an ID every time you walk in a grocery store or the mall.

If you want to get right down to it, why not just ban all the vendors that sell wild caught reptiles at these shows? We all know that most of those come in with parasites and diseases, in fact lots of them are fresh off the boat and then unpacked and put out on the tables basically. Or how about banning anyone that has had a mite infestation in their collection? I mean where does it end? I think we all need to take a step back and think about how we are approaching this issue.

All of those sound like great ideas to me. It is the "what can we do to stop them, oh nothing..." mentality that is causing this hobby to rot from the inside out. I am finding myself more and more less enthused with my involvement in the hobby...it just seems like a never ending cycle of scumbags, naredowells, and caustic personalities.

People abhor the weird cat lady with 20 cats.....yet in the reptile world, it's common place for the average hobbyist to have way more animals than that. I would say that animal hoarding lends itself much easier to reptiles than just about any other captive. And for what? To make money on morons? To feel "special" by posting pics of your collection on the Internet? To make up for holes in your personal life? Whatever the reason, I am getting more and more tired of seeing things like this thread unfold.

You can keep stocking your head in the sand about serious issues, Kelli......but sooner rather than later I believe the government will make the discussion a mute point. And it's because of people with your mentality that what other humans do in regards to how they treat the animals they are supposed to serve as stewards for is not your business. Just look the other way and the problems will fix themselves. Well, they won't.

Line was supposed to read: And for what, to make money on morphs? Stupid iPad auto-correct.

After all this, has anyone approached Bob or Brian the promoters with this issue?

They are the ones that decide how to deal with this since it's their show.

Ah, the good 'ole slippery slope fallacy. KelliH, you effectively constructed your own straw man and set it on fire with that line of hypothetical rhetoric.

Let's look at it this way: Mites are merely vectors (possibly not for IBD in particular).

Needles are, likewise, merely vectors of disease as well. Should we disallow anyone who has been injected by a needle to give blood? Or only those who engage in recreational drugs? Because, surely, the needle itself is not intrinsically "bad", but the risk factors surrounding its use define the potentiality of consequences.

Likewise, mites are a fact of life with herps. But they are, at the end of the day, just as innocuous as a needle until they have that *potential* to spread disease. It this *potential* (read: risk factor) which differentiates between a nuisance and a plague. Ashely has animals which have been demonstrably exposed to IBD--This "condition" can possibly be spread via mites.

That's all the reason in the world to ban her from attending any show!

No secret Illuminati black list needed.

The fact of the mater is that yes, indeed, a set of criteria can be developed to facilitate the methodological protection of other collections via the strategic banning of animals, people, vendors, etc, with no worry of "slipping" into some fascist police state.

Because, as far as my opinion counts, Ashely should be quarantined just as thoroughly as all of her animals. The risk is simply not worth anything less.

Originally Posted by DavidBeard

All of those sound like great ideas to me. It is the "what can we do to stop them, oh nothing..." mentality that is causing this hobby to rot from the inside out. I am finding myself more and more less enthused with my involvement in the hobby...it just seems like a never ending cycle of scumbags, naredowells, and caustic personalities.

People abhor the weird cat lady with 20 cats.....yet in the reptile world, it's common place for the average hobbyist to have way more animals than that. I would say that animal hoarding lends itself much easier to reptiles than just about any other captive. And for what? To make money on morons? To feel "special" by posting pics of your collection on the Internet? To make up for holes in your personal life? Whatever the reason, I am getting more and more tired of seeing things like this thread unfold.

You can keep stocking your head in the sand about serious issues, Kelli......but sooner rather than later I believe the government will make the discussion a mute point. And it's because of people with your mentality that what other humans do in regards to how they treat the animals they are supposed to serve as stewards for is not your business. Just look the other way and the problems will fix themselves. Well, they won't.

David, I'm not sticking my head in the sand. I'm just being realistic. People like me aren't the people that will be the cause of government restricting reptile ownership. You are placing blame on the wrong people, and as far as wanting reptiles being in the same category as cats or dogs... well they just aren't, and having 200 geckos is not the same as having even 10 cats or dogs. Be careful what you wish for.

Originally Posted by LD50_Junkie

Ah, the good 'ole slippery slope fallacy. KelliH, you effectively constructed your own straw man and set it on fire with that line of hypothetical rhetoric.

Let's look at it this way: Mites are merely vectors (possibly not for IBD in particular).

Needles are, likewise, merely vectors of disease as well. Should we disallow anyone who has been injected by a needle to give blood? Or only those who engage in recreational drugs? Because, surely, the needle itself is not intrinsically "bad", but the risk factors surrounding its use define the potentiality of consequences.

Likewise, mites are a fact of life with herps. But they are, at the end of the day, just as innocuous as a needle until they have that *potential* to spread disease. It this *potential* (read: risk factor) which differentiates between a nuisance and a plague. Ashely has animals which have been demonstrably exposed to IBD--This "condition" can possibly be spread via mites.

That's all the reason in the world to ban her from attending any show!

No secret Illuminati black list needed.

The fact of the mater is that yes, indeed, a set of criteria can be developed to facilitate the methodological protection of other collections via the strategic banning of animals, people, vendors, etc, with no worry of "slipping" into some fascist police state.

Because, as far as my opinion counts, Ashely should be quarantined just as thoroughly as all of her animals. The risk is simply not worth anything less.

I respect your opinion 100%, but I disagree. Respectfully.

I've been around thr hobby long enough to know thst in reality, very very few people care one iota about the overall sustinance of the hobby or the animals that fuel it. The vast majority care about their egos, themselves, and most of all....money. I have witnessed it myself.....scumbags with dead, actually deceased animals FOR SALE on tables at shows, and much more. And guess who caused a ruckus, guess who said enough is enough, guess who did the honorable thing....nobody. Because that vendor paid for their tables with cold hard cash.

Getting ANY show promoter to actually display and enforce ethics above money is a ridiculous proposition. When (if) people wake up and realize what this incessant trend of itemizing living animals is the root of many of our troubles.....MAYBE then steps can be taken to right this sinking ship. But I am not holding my breath.

Originally Posted by DavidBeard

I've been around thr hobby long enough to know thst in reality, very very few people care one iota about the overall sustinance of the hobby or the animals that fuel it. The vast majority care about their egos, themselves, and most of all....money. I have witnessed it myself.....scumbags with dead, actually deceased animals FOR SALE on tables at shows, and much more. And guess who caused a ruckus, guess who said enough is enough, guess who did the honorable thing....nobody. Because that vendor paid for their tables with cold hard cash.

Getting ANY show promoter to actually display and enforce ethics above money is a ridiculous proposition. When (if) people wake up and realize what this incessant trend of itemizing living animals is the root of many of our troubles.....MAYBE then steps can be taken to right this sinking ship. But I am not holding my breath.

David, some of you have given such beautifully laid out, logical arguments that there is nothing much left for me to say. I just want to add, that this doesn't have to continue. WE have the power - NOT the show promoters. People are reading this thread and they are making decisions as we type. Look how many views it has had so far.

If I lived in Texas, I would simply not attend any show where promoters were not making a proactive effort to protect ME and MY animals. Remember, even if we quarantine, any animals/people that have been exposed to known IBD carriers still have the ability to infect any animal that they touch. This has been proven by people with known stringent quarantine systems that have had the virus slip though, anyway.

In shows, there simply is no sure, proven way to make sure that something does not slip though to our collections except to keep those with KNOWN IBD in their collections away, OR to not attend ourselves.

The best thing anyone can do now is direct the promoters to this thread and let THEM make the decision on how to run their show. It is obvious that those NOT running it don't care enough to be proactive. HAVE the promoters been alerted? Those that know them should alert them. Either alert them or let this issue continue and thereby be setting them up for a future potentional failure.

I know I would not want a friend or acquaintance to be making decisions on MY work or life (that's why it's MINE.)

If we were going to ban all sickly, untreated, not quaranteed freshly imported animals and their sellers we would probably have to take a closer look at every show in the country, Daytona included. What we need is more education, not increased enforcement. If we do it by enforcement the issue will always be there and people will find their way around it. If we do it by education we might prevail in the end.