One More Reason to Test for Adenovirus

Originally Posted by CheriS

Denise, did you mean Dr Jacobson is it at U of FL or the testing at the University of IL?

Tere, any and all of the testing, I think that is a question that should be asked of all the testing locations and types. I have wondered about this lately cause I was thinking that Dr Jacobson has spend a decade studying IBD and really come a long way there, but, unless something has changed recently, they had not positively isolated which virus it is that causes that. They were down to a few virus.......So is there an isolate of the virus that has been indicated to be the cause of illness and death in some dragons? I had thought there was when they siad they had sequenced the DNA of it. But with some new infomation I am questioning that now

I Ooops, I meant to say Dr. Jacobson OR the University of Ill. My understanding is that Dr. Jacobsons at the University of Florida is performing the PCR tests, and the University of Il is performing the Fecal EM tests.

On IBD, according to my Merck, 3 strains of the virus have been isolated, so they have indeed come a long way.

I spoke with Lou Ann at the University of IL on 2/8/07 at 3:50pm eastern time by telephone. She said that the PCR is ultra sensitive and can pick up another species adenovirus, the PCR test can not differentiate between them at this time. We also discussed testing by PCR method at the University of IL if we can secure 20 tests per week and the rates should be around $30-$35. Please confirm the above conversation with Lou Ann at the University of IL at 217-244-1567.

Tammy

Originally Posted by Denisebme

One of the reasons I'm so against the finger pointing and fighting is because I firmly believe that even people working towards different goals can have common interests and a strong desire to figure things out for themselves and do the right thing. I would hope that as a community, we can at least respect the rights of people to have differing opinions.

This ought to be etched in stone at the entrance to this site.

I emailed Lou Ann at the University of IL and inquired as to what the test standard was for adenovirus and mentioned that we were discussing this on the forum and would appreciate any information she could share regarding the fecal em testing to detect adenovirus. I also mentioned there being 4 different genus of adenovirus and what that could mean in relation to some babies having adenovirus and having die offs whereas some test positive and appear perfectly healthy without any die offs. I asked permission to post her response. Here it is:

Hi Wendy,


There are classes and families in virus just like in naming the animal kingdom. Some of the branches have been renamed in recent decades,


Virus are grouped RNA or DNA and broken down from there. Mastadenovirus is the mammalian adeno strains. Aviadenovirus is the strain in birds.


There are hundreds of strains, Dr. Jacobson told the group that there were many strains in the very beginning, so this is no surprise. More than one strain for the beardies is most probable, probably many.

Telling the strains apart, the closest you come is PCR, not all PCR is alike, what it tests for is dependent upon what the lab is set up for. How specific are they testing for. Say some lab somewhere is getting 100% positive, it could be they are testing for a marker that is something in common in all strains, say another lab tests and finds some negatives in PCR, perhaps they are testing for more specific strains, have a more purified marker they are testing for.

I'm not saying that is the case, but this is basic common sense in dealing with any laboratory testing on.... well ... anything! Especially when dealing with varying antigenistic site issues.

Control: I have positive adeno samples I look at all the time, as I have stated before this is a visual identification. When I started in Negative stain, I was tested by the virology lab by being given unmarked vials of known cultures where by how and what cell types were infected, it was known what virus was there. There are plenty of visual references, atlas' etc, and I've been looking at adeno for almost 20 years. My images are sometimes what is used for pathology board exams.

This test, as I have told many from the start, is a visual identification, and it does not tell you the strain. It is a test that has been done for many decades and is a standard in both human and veterinary medicine as a tool to assist viral identification.

If you are asking if one can tell by looking what strain, no, there are many many strains, something well known, and they all look alike, or close enough as no difference. This is an aspect of the test that just has to be accepted. The difference in the strains is at the molecular level, again no surprise. Is it easy to mix it up with another type of virus? No, it isn't, this virus, adeno, has fairly distinct crystalline arrangements that are unique to itself, and easy to tell from the artifacts and other materials in the specimen.

So if a pig has adeno and adeno is flying around an enclosure, and a dragon is in or near the enclosure, and eats something that gets contaminated by the pig adeno, will it still show up in the dragon poop. Possibly, probably not in great number if it does, it takes a certain number of particles / mm3 to be seen at all, so it would be a long shot, but if it is in great numbers, it's more likely to be not an accidental ingestion..... would be an educated speculation. Will it look like the same particle, yes, appearances are it would look like the same particle.

So that is the test limitations. As I've told others, there are some other positives to the negative stain EM test, and that is if one's beardie is passing other virus, I can see and report that as well.

Is PCR the holy grail, we don't know, it depends upon how it is set up and what it is set up for, and what quantitatively a positive means. Is it too sensitive , we don't know, there just has not been the work done out there to compare clinical history and the two testing methods over a large population or a decently long time. At least that is what I hear the experts saying. And again I must say, I'm not a Vet, not a reptile specialist, I do virology identification, but I'm not a PhD virologist, my job is to find it and
identify it, but I'm not trained to give official veterinary advice.

I have talked with one of the 2 people involved, they do PCR here, for generally $35/ sample on other things. If there was enough volume, it might be something they would consider here,but the owners and breeders WOULD have to work through a vet, not with them directly. If it would be set up, it would be no time soon, as this lab is so swamped to the gills right now.

I will tell you this, Dr. Jacobson is held in very high regard by all here, and any information he shares, or when he can, puts up his website that will include this topic, it's worth heeding what he says. If anyone has the specific species PCR well established, it's probably his lab.


Lou Ann

I have been reading this post since the beginning. As the owner of 2 very loved dragons, I am all for testing. In fact, I just had my vet order the test kits for them today when they had their yearly physical. He was very curious to know why I wanted to test them and told them that I would like to know. I deworm my guys every 6 months, why not test them for adeno as well? Physically my babies are good. Hopefully when I get the tests done, they will be negative. I am on the fence on whether to breed them or not. My female won't be ready until next year. She's only a year old now. I know the time and expense that is involved. My boyfriend keeps telling me to do it. I told him that if I were to, then they would have to be tested. This way if I were to breed, at least I can be confident in selling healthy babies and providing documentation of such. My question is how often should they be tested for adeno? Is once yearly good enough?

Originally Posted by tammyaldrich

I spoke with Lou Ann at the University of IL on 2/8/07 at 3:50pm eastern time by telephone. She said that the PCR is ultra sensitive and can pick up another species adenovirus, the PCR test can not differentiate between them at this time. We also discussed testing by PCR method at the University of IL if we can secure 20 tests per week and the rates should be around $30-$35. Please confirm the above conversation with Lou Ann at the University of IL at 217-244-1567.

Tammy

Holy Smokes, that's cheap.

Originally Posted by techgirl

I have been reading this post since the beginning. As the owner of 2 very loved dragons, I am all for testing. In fact, I just had my vet order the test kits for them today when they had their yearly physical. He was very curious to know why I wanted to test them and told them that I would like to know. I deworm my guys every 6 months, why not test them for adeno as well? Physically my babies are good. Hopefully when I get the tests done, they will be negative. I am on the fence on whether to breed them or not. My female won't be ready until next year. She's only a year old now. I know the time and expense that is involved. My boyfriend keeps telling me to do it. I told him that if I were to, then they would have to be tested. This way if I were to breed, at least I can be confident in selling healthy babies and providing documentation of such. My question is how often should they be tested for adeno? Is once yearly good enough?

You probably just hit on the most controversial topic surrounding this issue. How often do you test? I truly hope no one gives you an answer that is set in stone, because this is one area where people are going to have to make that judgement cautiously.
I can tell you what I plan to do. All my breeders have been tested and my first pairing is scheduled for this weekend. Kahli is my first scheduled female. Kahli will once again be tested the day after she lays her first clutch, her mate will be tested again within days of breeding. If they both continue to test negative, then I will not test them again until next year, just prior to breeding season.
Is doing the second test necessary? I don't know and the ONLY thing anyone can tell me is that stress may or may not be a factor in Adenovirus. Will I continue to test with this frequency? Again, I don't know, I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. There are days when I think I have a solid game plan, then I read a post or talk to someone new, and my plans change again. Will I continue to use PCR testing? I don't know. Will I feel foolish 5 years from now if its discovered that Adeno, like parasites, is completely unpreventable under certain conditions? No, I won't. I'll feel I did the right thing for me at the time. given what was known.
Someone called me the other day to pick my brain. I'll tell you what I told them. Be wary of hard fast facts right now, take it slow, learn as much as you can, and make an informed decision for yourself. I believe that testing is critical, but I don't think it offers all the answers I want or need. Hopefully, we'll continue to talk and share information about the status of our colonies, because our conversations about what is going on with our animals, particularly any changes in the Status of a negative dragon, can teach ALL of us about this virus.
One thing I know for sure, not just as a long time herp hobbyist but also as a person with a heridetary syndrome is that scientists can study stuff in labs for years, but a community that comes to together to share information can make things happen much, much faster.
My rare genetic disorder mostly effects connective tissue, but it wasn't until a few thousand of us came together on the internet that the actual DNA marker was found, and strangely enough, they also found much to their surprise that the disorder also causes Glaucoma and kidney disease, having this information has saved lives and vision. The same thing can happen with this virus if enough of us contribute to what is going on.

wow,i just finished reading all of this thread.DACHIU,i think its discusting that you do not test your breeders for the virus!!no matter what excuses you have i believe its because it will cut into your profits too much(which will dwindle anyways once the word gets around that you dont test!)i was on your site and i also noticed that you dont use uvb!!!(on your growth chart page)and in you caresheet you state that"uvb isnt essential".are you kidding me???? whats the matter?will a $17 reptisun cut into your profits too? to all else out there:does anyone know which breeders supply petco and petsmart? thank you

Originally Posted by puppytoes72

wow,i just finished reading all of this thread.DACHIU,i think its discusting that you do not test your breeders for the virus!!no matter what excuses you have i believe its because it will cut into your profits too much(which will dwindle anyways once the word gets around that you dont test!)i was on your site and i also noticed that you dont use uvb!!!(on your growth chart page)and in you caresheet you state that"uvb isnt essential".are you kidding me???? whats the matter?will a $17 reptisun cut into your profits too? to all else out there:does anyone know which breeders supply petco and petsmart? thank you

My understanding is that most of them come from Sandfire. To be completely fair though, there are quite a few wholesalers out there that sell to petstores.

ty for your response.i believe sandfire has adeno in their collection,am i right?i should be getting the test kit tommorow from lou ann.i really dont have a good feeling about this.