****Anthony McCain BAD , STAy Away****

After hearing Anthony's side of the story, I tend to agree with him. The buyer in this case is certainly being unreasonable and quite childish. Anthony, though not going above and beyond to fix this, is certainly showing a high level of professionalism in dealing with this matter. It's unfortunate that his reputation is trying to be tarnished with this dealing.

ok since im somewhat confused.. the Female that derek has now that didnt produce any visible albinos is the same female that Anthony bred that didnt also produce any albinos... so then that girl can been deemed as a proven normal breeder. Right?

Ok so now derek has a breedable female that has produced 100% hets that he can easily sell off and in time make up for any monetary loss due to Anthony's error, but at the same time Anthony is trying his best to appease a disgruntled customer and offer him something thats near equal value that was in the original deal.

Am I missing something? FFS, not everyone is gonna win, cuz seriously, both anthony and derek are getting screwed by each other cuz one person wants something specific when the other is trying to offer what he thinks is best to make up for his error. Someone is gonna hafta give in and say screw it, other wise this situation is gonna just only add to the aggrivation that's already there. If neither one of you can come to a compromise, then people are gonna see Anthony as a crap seller, and/or Derek as a whiney greedy buyer.

If, Anthony has an offer on the table for derek, and derek has something else in mind... take the 2 and work from there. Come to a compromise and walk away.

End of story. =]

Nora it is a bit confusing but I think they are talking about a Sib to Derek's female ""I had a sibling female lay 6 eggs , one egg perished half way into incubation and 5 hatched , I didn't get any albinos from that clutch either.""

Now if I understood the it correctly the female that produced Derek's female and the sib mentioned was with another male the year before producing these two girls and that there is the very very remote chance she retained sperm from this other non albino male. Which is one very small possibility of why these two girls didn't produce visuals this year IE not being Het albinos. I think it is very unlikely that that happened but--

Derek made it sound as if Anthony had bred his (sibling to Derek's female) to something else last year IE the retained sperm thing .. where it seems that it was the mother of these two that had been sleeping around and had been with another man in the past...

It is possible and from what has been said here that both these females just bucked the odds this year. When it comes down to it we have to take Derek's and Anthony's word here as it is all we have to go on. If they are both being truthful with us then it is likely that Derek's female will throw some albinos in the future.

There have been a few threads like this and one a while back where someone even wanted compensation for animals not produced when the guy hadn't even bred his Het yet. It really doesn't help when there have been the infamous threads about the selling of fake hets which makes many worry about any Het they have.

Now I'm not trying to tell Anthony what to do but if it were me I'd do one of the following things. 1. Refund the money for the female and include some for her care since Derek's had her and have her returned to me... 2. If I had a proven female Het I'd trade her for Derek's Female. 3. Offer half the purchase price of the female and let him keep her. 4. If I were really worried about this female having retained sperm from another male I'd refund her selling price and let him keep her.... I know some wont agree but if you take the dollar signs down from in front of your eyes and realise that we are talking about an animal. They die, get sick and don't produce for any number of reasons, you bought an animal not a business...Randy

Just to clarify the female was a virgin, and has only produced 1 clutch, I had a sister to his female that also didn't hatch out albinos (albino x het, 5 eggs hatch out of 6) , that is why I was taking the safe approach that sperm retention from the mother of these 2 adult females "could" have been the problem here, not that it is for sure or proven, just yet , but that it realistically could have happened.. That's why I offered to compensate him NOW and told him to just keep the adult and her 8 het babies just in case S.R. did occur as I agree his time is valuable too.. I also am willing to accept that if she does prove out later to be a Het I may NEVER know since I no longer own her, and realize this could happen as well, my first and foremost intention was to make him happy and if it turned out heavy in his favor later with him making a pile of albinos next time she lays then so be it.. Either way down the road maybe I'll hatch out some heavy odds somewhere else such as a Super Stripe clutch as God / Karma or whatever you choose to call the higher power will reward me for being fair about it and indirectly maybe I'll somehow be rewarded for being a honest , fair guy , that was trying to help someone out that maybe really didn't even appreciate my help.. It's really that simple, and I really did try to prevent all this from day one, when he called... that's really the perplexing part of all this! Anthony....

Sounds like you are trying to work this out to keep Derek happy.

Hopefully the 2 of you will come to an amicable agreement.

Originally Posted by Corey Woods

I don't think you can jump to conclusions on one breeding. I've got my ass kicked on albino production this year from female 100% het albinos that have produced albinos from me in the past (I produced them myself). I had 12 eggs from Albino x 100% het and only 1 albino in the clutch.

If you want to talk even worse odds I had 11 eggs from Pastel het Caramel x normal and there were no pastels in the clutch.

Sometimes the odds kick you in the ass and sometimes they are very generous. I'd say breed the female again and hope for albinos.

Corey

I agree on the conclusions with Corey. I bred a spider male with a large normal girl - 5 huge eggs, and not a single spider. Odds weren't with me at all on that batch and that was a "co-dom" morph - recessives, I believe, need to be proven over 2 clutches.

Originally Posted by Anthony McCain

I have tried working this out with Derek ..As I have said I am not sure what caused her to not produce any albinos according to what Derek says.. I had a sibling female lay 6 eggs , one egg perished half way into incubation and 5 hatched , I didn't get any albinos from that clutch either. I was honest and told Derek about that and told him we would work it out with something else I had (such as a Mystic )and that he could keep the female he raised up from a subadult as well as all the 100% Hets from his " odds or if something carried over from the pastel, either way I was trying to help by sending him something up front before knowing everything. Derek likely has 3-4 100% Het Females worth $1000 or more already , yes that isn't 3k or whatever he was hoping for BUT I also told him to keep everything anyways besides what I wanted to send him..

I know if a dog breeder sold a dog that later on developed bad hips that the dog breeder would likely refund the money for the pup and say he was sorry , he WOULD'T cut him a 5k check since the owner lost money on pups he couldn't make in fear that the hip problem would be passed to the pups.. THAT being said I am trying to decide if because of the fact that he is calling me a theif , liar, jerk , etc, that perhaps it is best that I refund him for the female and end it all right now.. If she produces albinos next year for him I guess that's tough for me isn't it.. He is talking trash about me and my animals , when quite frankly I stand firmly behind them as being some of the best Balls in the nation..... He has done nothing here but try and make me look bad.. The BOI is intended to give people a heads up when someone is truely ripping people off , NOT SOMEONE that is doing all they can to work out an issue that hasn't been proved either way just yet.....

I offered him a Mystic as myself along with others feel the Mystic is a hot new morph that has huge potential and would have been a very generous animal to send him for any stortcomings he may have experienced... I was not trying to do anything but make him happy. At this point I don't know what is fair, as I've NEVER heard of another breeder doing much more than just giving a refund for the animal.. Derek can return the photo id'd Het G Stripes For CREDIT for other animals but cannot receive a cash refund as that doesn't follow my TERMS of sale policy... Anthony McCain..

Folks ,

A lot is missing of what went on behind the scenes , with the phone calls of him criticizing me because I am only 21 and haven't been in this as long as him. Talking to Anthony on the phone is like talking to a brick wall if you disagree , it is not happening. Anyone else who has gone through it with him knows the same


"I was honest and told Derek about that and told him we would work it out with something else I had (such as a Mystic )and that he could keep the female he raised up from a subadult as well as all the 100% Hets from his virgin animal, as it didn't seem right at the time for us both to miss on albinos..."

No you didn't . The first thing you did was get mad , told me you would give me $2500 off a Mystic , scream and yell trying to intimidate me. Then you said I don't want to talk about this anymore. Not once did you ever offer me anything.

I don't want your animals Anthony , if I get them and have another problem , Im not going through anything.


"Derek isn't returning my emails , nor will he listen to reason , he thinks I am out to get him or something, which I clearly am not... I offered to make it right with a Mystic , he agreed and then called back later that day to thank me for working it out, by the end of the conversation he had decided that he didn't want a Mystic after all , he said he was afraid I would drop the market on them so he didn't want one... I told him ALL the markets were dropping and will continue to , that if things don't sell at a specific price then the price drops until they do start selling again, nothing new here...."


Anthony you haven't sent me any emails since the a few days before I posted this. I don't have them , if you do , please POST them with dates attached.

No , you keep calling me from RESTRICTED numbers. I picked up once , not 10 seconds into it you started off with "Who do you think you are" this and that , I then hung up the phone.

After the rant you gave me on how you don't care what the Mystics sell for Anthony. The you tell me that some have already been wholesaled out to Big daddy's wholesale , Why would I want one , you are already undercutting the others you sold too . If this is such a high end snake , why are you wholesaling them already?

Anthony if all the prices are dropping , how is the Mystic going to be a $20k snake?

"Derek likely has 3-4 100% Het Females worth $1000 or more already , yes that isn't 3k or whatever he was hoping for BUT I also told him to keep everything anyways besides what I wanted to send him.. "

Yes , I do , these are snake sthat I would have made anyways . If I bred , i am now up hets and down albinos. Whether you like it not Anthony I would have kept them anyways , they are not yours . Your telling me to sell snakes from the clutch I produced , to recoupe for your mistake?????

Give me a reason why they would even go back to you??

I offered him a Mystic as myself along with others feel the Mystic is a hot new morph that has huge potential and would have been a very generous animal to send him for any stortcomings he may have experienced... I was not trying to do anything but make him happy. At this point I don't know what is fair, as I've NEVER heard of another breeder doing much more than just giving a refund for the animal.. Derek can return the photo id'd Het G Stripes For CREDIT for other animals but cannot receive a cash refund as that doesn't follow my TERMS of sale policy... Anthony McCain..


I think I already stated this above.

No I don't want your animals Anthony , and I wont take them. Not after you tell me you feed your 2 year old normal females 1 mouse a month. And also not after the guy who I sent you way to sell you rodents told me about your husbandry.

Folks this is not stuff I intentionally wanted to bring up , I am left with no choice , to explain why I don't want to deal with him or receive any of his animals.

Thanks again

Derek

I was gonna stay out of this, but this one paragraph stood out.

Originally Posted by Anthony McCain

Derek is also failing to mention the dozens of hours I have spent talking to him about Ball Pythons, the many sometimes late night hours that DIDN'T involve buying anything at all from me . Hours of MY time that I gave him my knowledge for free as I thought he appreciated an honest professional opinion of the Balls and it's market.. He is new to this and I was helping him the best way I knew how... DOES this really sound like I was scamming him ? He recently decided to treat me this way by going to the BOI before I could work anything out or come up with another solution just "in case" we really did have an issue with that "het" and has now turned this into something that was avoidable. He may be a customer , but I also deserve some respect too, especially since I was trying to help settle things the entire time ..

I have known Derek for a while now, have been chat friends, spent last year in Daytona together, and he's been like a son to me. We could spend hours talking and I truly believe him to be a good person.

Anthony I think, (I could be wrong) that because he did spend so much time with you on the phone and through other means of contact, that maybe you were a mentor of sorts to him.

He would go on and on about you in fauna chat, I even have a link to your site that he put up and I'm not a bp person. He never had a bad thing to say about you ever.

Derek is a high energy enthusiastic young keeper. He done things with his bp's that I didn't even think were possible.

My hope is that you can both come to a reasonable resolution to this situation and both put it behind you.

Originally Posted by Fedawg

Folks ,

The you tell me that some have already been wholesaled out to Big daddy's wholesale , Why would I want one , you are already undercutting the others you sold too . If this is such a high end snake , why are you wholesaling them already?


Derek

Ugh! There goes the market on mystics and there goes my opinion of Anthony. Why Big Daddys? Ugh!

If Derek is being honest (which I think he is) then Anthony needs to tell the ENTIRE story.

Originally Posted by SPJ

Ugh! There goes the market on mystics and there goes my opinion of Anthony. Why Big Daddys? Ugh!

If Derek is being honest (which I think he is) then Anthony needs to tell the ENTIRE story.

Yes , the entire story needs to be told.