David Freeman Carolina Classic Dragons

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

I hate to break up the N.C. ban wagon but telling this man to take option A or option B isnt going to get David any money back. This man can walk away and not give him anything. So lets try working with each other.

"The NC Bandwagon" - ? ...low blow, Tom. Come on. Dave could've been the Cryptkeeper living in a jaunty organic bungalow in Montevideo, and my opinion would've been the same. Yes, the herp community in North Carolina is growing and is close knit, but don't mistake our camaraderie for ignorant foolhardiness. Not fair.

I didn't agree with the personal attacks either, I stated that - - but since the "price is in the eye of the seller", it needed to be made ahead of time. The only price that was agreed upon was $800. It's not up to us to decide if the hypo-trans was the "Mercedes" or the "Pinto" - but yeah, if price is up to the seller, which I fully agree, it is - - if it's a package deal that requires itemizing, it needs to be dictated ahead of time. It seems marginally convenient that after the fact, the one that died is priced as the dragon of lesser value by the complainant.

Originally Posted by dragonluver83

I hate to break up the N.C. ban wagon but telling this man to take option A or option B isnt going to get David any money back. This man can walk away and not give him anything. So lets try working with each other.

Since the price of one dragon was only 367.50 ( not to mention Anthony paid paypal fees on 800 bucks)

Can we get 350 to resolve it? You both are more mature than this...

I agree that giving the seller any form of ultimatum isn't a good idea. And I do agree that meeting in the middle is fair. But please don't lump everyone from NC into a "band wagon." I personally would like to think that my opinions are not based solely on locality and a "hip hip hurray for the home team" demeanor.

Originally Posted by jellyfishrhythm

It seems marginally convenient that after the fact, the one that died is priced as the dragon of lesser value by the complainant.

Exactly. Personal opinions of quality aside (both were gorgeous animals in their own right), it is amusing to see the seller favor the live dragon and the buyer favor the deceased.

Regardless, without a written TOS or receipt confirming the individual value of each animal, a 50/50 split does seem like the only amicable solution.

Originally Posted by jellyfishrhythm

"The NC Bandwagon" - ? ...low blow, Tom. Come on. Dave could've been the Cryptkeeper living in a jaunty organic bungalow in Montevideo, and my opinion would've been the same. Yes, the herp community in North Carolina is growing and is close knit, but don't mistake our camaraderie for ignorant foolhardiness. Not fair.

I didn't agree with the personal attacks either, I stated that - - but since the "price is in the eye of the seller", it needed to be made ahead of time. The only price that was agreed upon was $800. It's not up to us to decide if the hypo-trans was the "Mercedes" or the "Pinto" - but yeah, if price is up to the seller, which I fully agree, it is - - if it's a package deal that requires itemizing, it needs to be dictated ahead of time. It seems marginally convenient that after the fact, the one that died is priced as the dragon of lesser value by the complainant.

Call it how I seen it. Sorry alot of people dont like the truth. I see everyone bombarding Anthony and everyone is from N.C. except one.

telling Anthony to take one or the other. LOL..

Please fill me in on when the buyer and his customers/friends is aloud to set the standards/ terms of service?

No there was no negotiating of what each individual dragon was worth. But even I wouldnt refund more than what was spent on a animal. An I have given replacements to others that shouldnt have gotten them.

Originally Posted by Sushi Dragons

I agree that giving the seller any form of ultimatum isn't a good idea. And I do agree that meeting in the middle is fair. But please don't lump everyone from NC into a "band wagon." I personally would like to think that my opinions are not based solely on locality and a "hip hip hurray for the home team" demeanor.

Again, I call it how I see it. No offense but I see a N.C. hate wagon. Telling the seller what he needs to do and how he needs to do it. An save face. Do it now. Strong words to a guy with David's 800 bucks. Be easy kiddo.

YOU and STEPH are regs on the b.o.i.'s so maybe it wasnt so much directed at you, but you two certainly didnt help. Lol.

Originally Posted by Sushi Dragons

I agree that giving the seller any form of ultimatum isn't a good idea. And I do agree that meeting in the middle is fair. But please don't lump everyone from NC into a "band wagon." I personally would like to think that my opinions are not based solely on locality and a "hip hip hurray for the home team" demeanor.

Originally Posted by Sushi Dragons

Exactly. Personal opinions of quality aside (both were gorgeous animals in their own right), it is amusing to see the seller favor the live dragon and the buyer favor the deceased.

Regardless, without a written TOS or receipt confirming the individual value of each animal, a 50/50 split does seem like the only amicable solution.

Im lost meeting in the middle (which was my offer) was 350. your second post says 50 50 which is 400. which one are you going with?

Again, after shipping and paypal fees. the cost of each dragon is under 367.50. WHY IS HE GETTING 400 BACK? he didnt spend 400 for each dragon!!!

Dragonluver83 - Since you felt the need to take my opinion on this incident and analyze it to death i'll go ahead and respond to help you out a little.

((Judging a book by it's cover??? You will learn one day my friend.
Pictures and hobbies dont tell you anything about a man's business eithic's.
My hobbies and business ethic's are black and white.)) ... hmm alright...

I feel you may be limiting your potential success in Business/Marketing 101... Pictures and hobbies perhaps don't tell YOU " YOURSELF " about YOUR business ethics because YOU think your hobbies and business ethics are black and white... but YOU are missing the entire perception piece from potential customers who don't know anything about you... if you understand marketing and business you know that first impressions and perceptions are huge!!! Nothing " yourbeat " shows has me drooling to take him serious as a breeder of high quality dragons.

That said...

If "yourbeat" and David had the exact same dragons for sale on this site for an example based off first glance and impression i'm going to go with David. A nice picture of a Citrus dragon with logo and classy email and name for a business. Versus "yourbeats"..."2 guns" and some saying that sounds cocky with an email of "mdskillz1717". ( That's all my point was my... " friend " ). Cheers! Good luck in the future.

As for the buyer being defensive, I would have been too. Asking why it took two hours to contact the seller about a DOA insinuates the seller killed it. Unless the dragon was intentionally killed, I don't see it dying in 2 hours unless it was the result of shipping, just my opinion. If you can't guarantee your lizard to live at least 24 hours after arrival, then you should make that clear to the buyer before the sale. Often these details are not discussed beforehand because it can scare a buyer away.

Since the price of one dragon was only 367.50 ( not to mention Anthony paid paypal fees on 800 bucks)

If Anthony takes the proper refund route, he wouldn't have to pay the PayPal fees on the money returned. I believe when the money is refunded so are the fees for that amount. Sending the money back as a different transaction will double the fees and only benefit PayPal. I would recommend the refund process.


This is a scary situation and sucks for both parties, but honestly, I would have refunded the $400 right after being notified. If this was a someone without a rep, I might ask for more details, but a good rep should stand for something. Honestly, good customers will be reluctant to purchase from someone that won't take their word or trouble them about a refund. I understand the bad customers ruin this, but you should also be selective on who you sell to. In this case I would have trusted the buyer. No offense to the OP, just my opinion on the matter as requested.

The animal arrived DOA. Refund the buyer's money! If there was no set amount for each dragon then refund half of the amount sent (minus shipping) like Tom has said. I don't understand how there could even be a question about what to do in this particular situation.

I am glad to see that the last 3 posts weren't from someone residing in North Carolina!

Oh Tom Clarke...learned even more about you in this thread. As a breeder, I cannot believe you place more value on phenotype over genotype. I certainly do not. You bring up color? You think the one that died had inferior color? Cmon! Once again, so subjective but I will bet you the majority of people would choose the color of the trans that died over this partial trans.

I now know who you were referring to Anthony All those bad things you heard about me.

I just went and looked at my cell phone log and I called Tom at 11:44 which means I opened the box earlier than that. I am guessing the package got here sometime after 10:00. So, it wasn't two hours. We all ship dragons that have been in boxes far longer with no ill effects so trying to question 2 hours or less is so trivial. Just for the record, I was shocked he put a heat pack in that box! They were coming to NC and are temps were in the mid 80's! Seriously? And you do it without even communicating the fact you did it, how you shipped it or providing any tracking information.

Just send the $367.50. If you honestly think Anthony started this thread over whether he should pay $300 or $400, you are kidding yourself. This wasn't an inquiry. This was a desperate attempt to take this public and hope that someone might in one way or another agree with him, jump on his bandwagon, and he could weazel his way out of having to pay anything. I offered to let him just pay $100 a week for 4 weeks or if he needed more time to take it as I felt for the situation he was in. He didn't want this dragon to die but it did. I didn't bring this issue to a public forum, he did.

One other suggestion I have, probably just my preference, but I would tape/secure the heat pack to the bottom of the top styrofoam piece. I once received a snake that was almost cooked because the pack was directly on her and she could not move away from it. She was severly dehydrated and it might have been what lead to her RI (or at least helped bring it out) that I discoved the night after receiving her.