The PROOF that venomoid snakes are not safe!`

The basic truth is that there is a horrendous risk a purported void can pose to life. There is no question in anyone's mind that a release of liability in void production is not geared toward the ordinary run of the mill business risks, it is for the purpose of shifting risk when the purported void is found to be hot and someone is injured or dies.

Originally Posted by lucille

The basic truth is that there is a horrendous risk a purported void can pose to life. There is no question in anyone's mind that a release of liability in void production is not geared toward the ordinary run of the mill business risks, it is for the purpose of shifting risk when the purported void is found to be hot and someone is injured or dies.

Ok. So, let's assume here again. (btw, has anyone contacted Dr. Sabatini? I posted his phone number and email address)

[Example only, once again]
The "release of liability" document requires a buyer's signature in order to buy a venomoid and it only serves one purpose which is shifting accountability to the buyer to protect the seller in case the buyer dies. yeah right, but let's assume that.

now, ask yourself a basic question. Do you honestly think that if a buyer dies that piece of paper will truly protect the seller? do you honestly think if someone drops dead tomorrow because two glands grew overnight that Dr. Sabatini is going to pull up his copy of the document in a court of law and say "haha in your face! you signed this paper and you can't do nothing!" Come on! Are you really that ignorant? Rather than wasting time here, why don't you Google some basic veterinarian malpractice laws or contact a lawyer.

Your assumption is just ridiculous; however, i would like to give you another example; one that's more quantitative rather than relying on subjectivity. Please follow me here...

Which has a lower risk level?

A) Reparative regrowth on elapids w/o a full adenectomy presents a level of risk because a tissue could reattach a duct to a fang. If a veterinarian makes a mistake and leaves a gland intact someone will get hurt or die. An experienced veterinarian has devenomized over 300 snakes per year since 2002 which brings a number to 1800, but today he makes a mistake and leaves both glands out. The DVM sells the snake to the buyer the day after the surgery (even though animals do not make it to buyer's hands until more than a few weeks after the surgery, but again, we are assuming). Buyer handles his snake and never signed anything because the DVM does not have any documents at all for people. Buyer dies.

B) If 300 snakes are sold by the DVM in letter A, we must assume that the number of venomous snakes sold by other venomous snake dealers is much greater. Let's say for every DVM selling venomoids, we have 10 venomous snake dealers (we know the ratio is 1 dvm vs. the rest of the venomous market here in the US). So now we have 300x 10 snakes sold per year and since 2002, we'll have a total of 18,000. That's 18000 thousand venomous snakes sold and kept by venomous snake keepers. If a DVM made a mistake operating on a venomous snake, wouldn't you say 18,000 buyers could potentially make a mistake too? if 18,000 people purchased venomous snakes in a 6 year period, I'm only assuming but I think at least more than one got tagged and died based on simple statistics.

Is option B less risky than option A? or is option A the choice with a much higher risk level? Of course, the biggest difference is that the buyers that keep hots won't handle the venomous snakes while the void keepers will touch them every day. Even if we assume that, one person drops dead based on a veterinary malpractice vs. maybe more than one dying because it is more likely that 18,000 people will make more mistakes than 1 person.



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Nobody wants anyone to get hurt or die here, but i'm just showing you how keeping venmous snakes regardless how careful you are has a much higher risk than a veterinarian malpractice. I see more posts on KS about people getting tagged by venomous snakes and to my knowledge in 6 years, i have not seen a single case where a venomoid killed someone.

Now, does this mean that venomous snake keepers have a higher risk tolerance? does this mean that venomous snake keepers are not concerned with their safety and others? Of course not. They made a decision based on "risk management" and their acceptable risk was to keep a venomous snake by following basic procedures and standards used by all if not most venomous keepers. So, how come we do not ask venomous snake dealers to provide documentation to buyers stating that if they do not properly follow some basic guidelines, the snake will kill them. Why don't we ask them to post that on their websites stating that it is low and maybe unlikely but as a buyer, you will make a mistake and die. Why ? Why can we ask Glades, Diamond Reptiles, or our friend Al Cortiz to publish that on their websites?

Are we really being fair here? or are the opinions expressed by those individuals opposed to the venomoid practice targetting the venomoid dealers ONLY?

Please elaborate.

Also, can I have an update on the cobra that bit someone and some links to that incident as well as facts? Can I have links to the reports mentioned on previous posts? Can someone tell me what Dr. Sabatini said when you called him ? come on guys!

I'll say this very plainly - I doubt there are links, and followup is unlikely (to be totally honest, I don't recall the person's last name, though I'm sure I'll obsess over it, now, until I do). The incident occurred in the mid-90s. It wasn't something I read about - it happened to a person I knew. He contacted me after the bite, and I spoke with him while he was recovering in the hospital (and a few times after). He moved out of the State at least 10 yrs ago - the only reason I know that is that he was gone before I left for AR. I'm not going to recant the full story as I recall it...you can accept it at face value, or disregard it.

As I was typing this, I thought of another person that might have some memories of this situation (he also got a call that night, and ended up taking possession of the cobra for some time). I'll shoot him an email.

And I think I can stop obsessing - a last name has come up from the depths, lol

Oh to let you know Al does publish that venomous nakes are dangerous and can and will kill.

But Al also is not taking a deadly animal and then telling somone this one is harmless now 100% by this one.

When you buy a venomous snake you know you are getting a deadly animal.

You on the other hand are selling animals that you are telling people are 100% HARMLESS.

I refuse more venomous sales a year then I sell. Ask anyone that buys off me how hard it is to get a hot from me.

in your terms you are saying this person is not doing it so why should I. Becuase IF you are wanting to get ALL the facts out then do it. if not then don't but fact is that if the Vet messes up then the snake can become hot again................ the people should know this.

OH and Christian I was going to stop by the table last time I was there. But you guys behind the table were to busy handling an adult gabby.................. Turned me off becuase you told me in the past you did not agree with treating voids different then hots.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

I'll say this very plainly - I doubt there are links, and followup is unlikely (to be totally honest, I don't recall the person's last name, though I'm sure I'll obsess over it, now, until I do). The incident occurred in the mid-90s. It wasn't something I read about - it happened to a person I knew. He contacted me after the bite, and I spoke with him while he was recovering in the hospital (and a few times after). He moved out of the State at least 10 yrs ago - the only reason I know that is that he was gone before I left for AR. I'm not going to recant the full story as I recall it...you can accept it at face value, or disregard it.

As I was typing this, I thought of another person that might have some memories of this situation (he also got a call that night, and ended up taking possession of the cobra for some time). I'll shoot him an email.

And I think I can stop obsessing - a last name has come up from the depths, lol

Thats the thing though everytime someone says something Christian wants a link. Link me to proof. There is proof in thei vid that a void is hot again.

I am telling you there is stuff in the orks to record more stuff so that it is down on paper.

Originally Posted by hhmoore

I'll say this very plainly - I doubt there are links, and followup is unlikely (to be totally honest, I don't recall the person's last name, though I'm sure I'll obsess over it, now, until I do). The incident occurred in the mid-90s. It wasn't something I read about - it happened to a person I knew. He contacted me after the bite, and I spoke with him while he was recovering in the hospital (and a few times after). He moved out of the State at least 10 yrs ago - the only reason I know that is that he was gone before I left for AR. I'm not going to recant the full story as I recall it...you can accept it at face value, or disregard it.

As I was typing this, I thought of another person that might have some memories of this situation (he also got a call that night, and ended up taking possession of the cobra for some time). I'll shoot him an email.

And I think I can stop obsessing - a last name has come up from the depths, lol

Mr. Moore! Unacceptable! I want the links now Hey, I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if you can get the links, I will post htem on my website. Another reason why I haven't post the video is because I updated my PC and I need to install Flash to publish it.

Originally Posted by Gary O

Thats the thing though everytime someone says something Christian wants a link. Link me to proof. There is proof in thei vid that a void is hot again.

I am telling you there is stuff in the orks to record more stuff so that it is down on paper.

Gary, there is no such things as the "void is hot again". If the snake can inject or produce venom is not a venomoid dude!

Plain english: full adenectomy + full ductectomy = venomoid which means no venom; however, malpractice = venom. A snake that can partially inject or produce venom is a sad attempt at doing a full adenectomy and/or ductectomy.

Originally Posted by Gary O

Oh to let you know Al does publish that venomous nakes are dangerous and can and will kill.

But Al also is not taking a deadly animal and then telling somone this one is harmless now 100% by this one.

When you buy a venomous snake you know you are getting a deadly animal.

You on the other hand are selling animals that you are telling people are 100% HARMLESS.

I refuse more venomous sales a year then I sell. Ask anyone that buys off me how hard it is to get a hot from me.

in your terms you are saying this person is not doing it so why should I. Becuase IF you are wanting to get ALL the facts out then do it. if not then don't but fact is that if the Vet messes up then the snake can become hot again................ the people should know this.

I mentioned Al as well as the other dealers as examples and I'm not tryin to say they are doing something wrong. I'll say that before you start quoting me. You love doing that. I better never run for office because you'll have so much crap on me the way you sometimes take stuff out of context.

Gary, you are the exception and the example. You are the utopia of what the general public would want from all dealers to be. You've saved many lives with your approach. What else can I say?

YOu are 100% correct that if a "vet messes up then the sanek can become hot again". That's just like saying 1+1 = 2 man! Listen, when you call Dr. Sabatini or get a reply to his email, I'll be happy to discuss things with you. for now, you are letting me down because I can't believe you have time to type but you can't pick up the phone or send an email to wait for a response from the one and only person who can give you an answer, a partial answer, or tell you to piss off. YOu'll never know until you ask. Would you like to call me? very easy. call me now and we'll conference Dr. Sabatini. 1-888-DEVENOMIZED

Originally Posted by Gary O

OH and Christian I was going to stop by the table last time I was there. But you guys behind the table were to busy handling an adult gabby.................. Turned me off becuase you told me in the past you did not agree with treating voids different then hots.

Gary

wasn't that a few years ago? is that really your excuse? seeing someone hold a gaboon viper turned you off so now you can address a concern you have in person? come on man! i hope you're kidding. are you really that delicate? i saw a picture of you and you looked like you are much bigger than that my friend