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03-21-2004, 05:40 PM
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#31
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Quote:
Originally posted by serpentsden
Hey if my American Bull Dog should ever deside to turn on me does that give me Rights to sue the breeder? Or lets say can this snake be tracked all the way back to Africa and sue every person that had hands on this animal????
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how can you compair a dog to a snake? if i had the email of the person you sold this snake to i would send them a link asap
the importers in africa sold the snakes to serpentsden, not a 17 year old with his moms credit card.
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03-21-2004, 05:46 PM
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#32
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Re: Good
Quote:
Originally posted by sputnik
Vince, if you are working constantly with venomous reptiles, a few bites over 20 plus years is a good record! Not perfect, but GOOD!
What has any of that got to do with this issue anyway?
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sorry i didnt know it was good to get bit several times by venomous snakes. I know someone who has kept and bred rattle snakes for 10 years and hasent got bitten once.
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03-21-2004, 05:50 PM
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#33
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MY point
Quote:
sorry i didnt know it was good to get bit several times by venomous snakes. I know someone who has kept and bred rattle snakes for 10 years and hasent got bitten once.
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Exactly my point, we're talking 20 plus, not 10... in anycase there a more agile and faster moving snakes then rattlesnakes. I wouldn't rate rattlesnakes as being a threat compared to other more agile elapids either.
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03-21-2004, 06:33 PM
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#34
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Keep this where it is...
While I don't know Steve and actually hope that things work out, I really don't see any good news on the horizen. Liability is one of the major reasons we don't mess with venomous at this point. I feel that we need to have an extemely good attorney on retainer before we could ever begin to keep venomous where others could even view them and especially before we could sell them. That and s ton of insurance to cover our backsides.
Unfortunately, even though I forsee a doomed scenario when/if this case unfolds, I don't think this thread should be removed or editted by Rich. It serves as a terrible reminder of what can happen when we let our guard down for even one customer. There are just too many other issues that come up in this thread that everyone in the biz/hobby should be VERY aware of to eliminate it. We've all got to be educated sometimes and often the lessons we learn are distasteful. This just happens to be one of them.
I am actually suprised, with the Hamburg show in PA and all, that exact fine points of the law are not known. Likewise, I'd be extemely interested to learn more about a minor who has a state (or was it local) permit for venomous, as this may be another issue that should be addressed separately for all to learn about and make inquiries in their own local and/or state jurisdictions.
Steve, I'm sorry this happened to you. Actually sorry to hear about it happening to anybody here. But it did and now has to be dealt with. Simple advice:
First thing Monday morning, be on the phone with an attorney (a damned good one) and get him/her hired to represent you. It's going to cost you out the wazoo and no way around it.
Second, don't reply to this message or any other, PERIOD!!!, regardless of how irritated it may make you. While I wish you'd have clamed up earlier, you've already said way too much on here. Any correspondence you have with anyone who writes here or that you want to contact for advice should definitely be kept out of a public forum. Try direct e-mail. Likewise, I'd save the "important stuff" on my computer, purge my system, re-load it and then keep all of these communications to a strictly web-based e-mail where no copy of it was available on my computer in case it were to be called into evidence.
Third, start getting ready for a large pay-out in case you lose the case. If it's going to happen, losing that is, hopefully you'll be able to settle out of court quietly and with non-disclosure agreements signed and filed properly. I truly fear that this is a lost case and you have my sympathies about it already. Your best hope is that you get an attorney who can make this go away, quickly and quietly, with no more being said or filed. If you do indeed lose, be prepared to lose your venomous animals and/or permit(s) for at least a set amount of time.
Fourth, get yourself educated about the fine points of the venomous laws so no more mistakes can be made. Set up a safety net for yourself and your business so that this can never happen again.
I hate to sound like a naysayer of doom, but better to be prepared for the worst while hoping/praying for the best. Either way, you're better prepared for the outcome. And if it should work out in your favor, you're still better off for it. This is a scary scenario and while I'm glad it's not me, I wish it weren't anybody, including you.
One last time, PLEASE!!!, SO NOT RESPOND TO THIS WITHIN THIS THREAD!!! Take everything to web-based e-mail.
David Jobes
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03-21-2004, 07:03 PM
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#35
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I my self do not live in PA, but I know some people up there and they have not heard a single thing about a bite from an Atheris Chlorechis. All the doctors could of done in this case is to sit around a hope for the best, as there is no AV for Atheris spp.
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03-21-2004, 07:17 PM
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#36
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Just some points........
Each person and each company has their own policies in regards to sales of venomous species. Most simply follow federal, state or local laws. Some go a bit farther. I don't think anyone can be too careful in regards to sales of potentially dangerous species wether it's hots, crocodilians or large constrictors etc. Many people complain about the tight laws in Florida in regards to hots.....I'm all for it. Just to make it short , you must be permited , inspected, have suitable enclosures, have 1,000 hours or one year experience plus be 18. The problems I see here are the fact that the person who picked the snake up, signed the waiver and physically paid for the specimen was under 18 and legally a minor therefore, none of it is binding. Again as others mentioned I don't want to kick you when your down but, it is somewhat questionable in regards to judgement. For those discussing the atheris venom....There is no recognized "specific antivenom". Each species also varies according to locality in regards to venom property and that particular venoms LD. VINCE......lay off a little. I know people who have worked with hots for 15 years and have been bitten 20 times plus so his record is not bad at all. You also have to consider which species the person is working with, how many specimens they have and how often they handle each specimen. I've worked with hots for well over 25 years and at one time cleaned over 100 venomous cages weekly or bi-weekly. I've had one major bite which landed me in the critical care unit for 4 days. It does happen.....Consider the % of the times a particular keeper is working with hots before you make judgement please. Also, Each bite case is unique in its own way and it should not be downplayed when a particular species envenomates someone and there is little reaction. Even throwing out the possibility of dry bites.......each person reacts differently to specific venoms. The particular area of the bite can even affect the symptoms and severity of a particular envenomation. I won't go into the "if it were me scenario" however, the sale at least should have been made in the physical presence and directly to the adult parent. Good Luck, hate to see this happen.
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03-21-2004, 07:29 PM
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#37
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Re: Keep this where it is...
Quote:
Originally posted by Double "D" Reptiles
I hate to sound like a naysayer of doom, but better to be prepared for the worst while hoping/praying for the best. Either way, you're better prepared for the outcome. And if it should work out in your favor, you're still better off for it. This is a scary scenario and while I'm glad it's not me, I wish it weren't anybody, including you.
, PLEASE!!!, SO NOT RESPOND TO THIS WITHIN THIS THREAD!!! Take everything to web-based e-mail.
David Jobes
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the worst has already happend this is the aftermath, if you think this company haveing to pay up for negligents is the worst then i guess thats just a differnce of opinion.
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03-21-2004, 07:58 PM
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#38
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Wow!! My concern is not with the attorney's but Federal Fish and Wildlife!! They play by there own set of rules. They also frequent forums like these for that reason.
There is an attorney by the name Of Brett Nelson who handles reptile laws and issues. He is in Indianna 1346 n. Delaware st. Indianapolis. In. 46202-2413 Phone 317 637-0700 I've spoken with him on 2 seperate occasion and he seems to be good.
Good luck with this and let's hope that the news does not get a hold of this. It just gives peta more ammunition!!
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03-21-2004, 08:31 PM
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#39
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WELL.....
Quote:
the worst has already happend this is the aftermath, if you think this company haveing to pay up for negligents is the worst then i guess thats just a differnce of opinion.
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I think the worst is yet to happen... Unfortunately!
This could easily blow out on many different levels, especially if the media get a hold of it. That's possibly worse then what attorney's can do!
It all comes down to someone selling to a minor and not even knowing their state laws... unbelievable. I feel the dollar came first here and commonsense dead last!
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03-21-2004, 08:31 PM
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#40
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Allowing a 17 year old Minor child to even pick up and transport a Venomous Reptile. That in itself seams to me to be rather irresponcible and dangerous on the part of the seller. Why did you not enforce that a Parent/ Guardian pick up the animal?
You allowed a Minor to use his parents credit card. Why would you allow a minor to use a credit card without the Card Owner Present with proper ID.
Even if you spoke with the Parent via E-mail or Phone and were given the "OK" to proceed with the purchase, why did you not DEMAND before pick-up was allowed that and adult be present for the release signature and to take possesion of the animal.
Sorry to hear about this for all parties. I am curious though why you would allow a minor to do these things and not require an adult present.
Scott Bice
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