CH vs LTC? How many times do snakes change hands?

How many people (let's not call them "friends" but business acquaintances) a snake might go through before making it to the final destination (namely a private collection)?

First we have no clue about how many hands it went through in her original country (Africa, Asia, South America, etc.) before becoming a "legal alien" in the US.

Second, the snake is imported by a large US animal dealer. She is then bought with a group by broker A who in turn sells her to a friend of his, broker B (no, not him again!). Broker B has it for a while posting ads all over the planet and having no luck (with sale and/or feeding), decides to sell her with a small margin to broker C (Nooo! not them again). Broker C has her for sale for a while but the market is slow, and she is still not feeding, so he trades her in to dealer D (a good guy) in payment for a debt. The snake barely makes it to dealer D who is very upset with C. This is a possible case scenario for a LTC snake (although maybe all this happened in a couple of months).

I'm not against buying WC as they increase the genetic pool in captivity. From now on when offered a LTC, I will more than likely run the other way. Particularly if the animal is a sub-adult to adult. How many different collections has the animal been through before reaching the final buyer? Exposed to how many different bugs?

My first choice will continue to be CB animals. Second choice, CH babies, you name the species. Yes, he is not acclimated to captivity, but if I'm going to take my chances I want him to be as close to origin as possible, and having gone through as few hands as possible.

Regards.

Daniel,

I can totally understand where your coming from but it should be a case by case situation. Yes there are the situations that happen just like you described but there are also those that have animals that are LTC by them and fed and cared for the entire time in their collection. Just as an example. I import quite a few animals now(mainly Chameleons). But everything at my facility gets fed, cared for, and taken care of. If I have the animal long enough for me to deem it a LTC animal people should not think that the animal(s) have been through many other importers/brokers. Hell here is a prime example. I have a Pied Ringer male Ball Python. I have had the animal for about 8 months now. The animal did not feed for the first couple of months I had it so I did not offer it for sale as I wanted to wait for him to feed to offer him for sale. He started feeding like a champ and would eat anything I offered him. Well in November he escaped from his enclosure just as I was getting ready to put him on the market. I found him about 2 weeks later. He had gotten himself cut by trying to get through a wire screen that was on my Back Porch (still don't know how he got to my porch from my office). Well he is all healed now and just stared feeding again. When I decide he is healthy enough to offer for sale he will be a LTC of probably a year but because of the LTC he should be thought automatically that he has been through a ton of people's hands. I guess what I am saying is it definitely goes by the sellers reputation and honesty about the animals origin and whereabouts during its captivity. I hope you understand what I am saying as I have a healluva headache and am probably not making any sense at all.

I can totally understand where your coming from but it should be a case by case situation.

Rob,

I understand completely where you are coming from, and hey, the CH female balls you sold me are huge (and I really mean huge). So are the ones I bought from Ben. That's what I meant by working with babies that come from a reliable supplier.

Maybe I was a little extremist when stating "run the other way". Of course it would be on a case by case scenario. Nevertheless I feel more comfortable starting-up babies than getting a LTC. Again, I would have to trust the seller 100% before jumping into one. There were recently a couple of very interesting snakes that were up for sale. They were recent imports, and I was really close to go for them. But it was quite a chunk of money, and I have never bought from this person before. Well...next time I guess.

Try Advil, the TV commercials can't be wrong

Sort of a side note as it applies to recent discussions on the boi...

I agree, it is all about trusting the seller and asking questions. There are several scenarios for a "LTC"--that is why it is always best, and so easy, to just ask the dealer. I usually go by--if they cant tell me the history, stay away...
Same goes for "cb" animals. I see dealers advertising "cb" all the time for animals that are obviously not captive bred. Again, asking the dealer who bred it is a good way to avoid being taken. As a breeder, you can imagine this ticks me off, but I guess I'm used to it. Trying to sell true captive bred frilled dragons or uromastyx in a market that it is common for imports to be labeled as such is frustrating. I was told that I was "price raping" last year when I had captive bred (bred by me) frillies for $195 when dealers were selling them for $175 as "cb" (obviously not). And it is unfair to the buyer who is being mislead in their purchase. I too have purchased "cb" animals that were certainly not.
Some guidelines...
if it is a monitor (other than australian), ball python, frilled dragon, uromastyx, water dragon, iguana, advertised as "cb", definitely ask. If it is a "LTC" but you know a shipment recently came in, definitely ask....

I have nothing against WC animals--I have a number of them-- I am against misrepresentation or lying about the history of an animal.

oops, hit the button too soon---forgot to sign my name!
Dana

Same goes for "cb" animals. I see dealers advertising "cb" all the time for animals that are obviously not captive bred. Again, asking the dealer who bred it is a good way to avoid being taken.

Yes, I agree. But how do you go about that Dana? They will usually tell you that either they breed them themselves or a good friend of his did. They might even provide you with a number to call (after all that's what friends are for, right?

As a breeder, you can imagine this ticks me off, but I guess I'm used to it. Trying to sell true captive bred frilled dragons or uromastyx in a market that it is common for imports to be labeled as such is frustrating.

I can hear you loud and clear. The same goes for ball pythons. One guy I respect although I never bought from him is Mark M. Lucas. Maybe I'm wrong but I do like his ads. He just tells you as it is, fair and square. No sugar coating. These are the animals, they are WC, untreated, period. You know exactly what to expect.

I was told that I was "price raping" last year when I had captive bred (bred by me) frillies for $195 when dealers were selling them for $175 as "cb" (obviously not). And it is unfair to the buyer who is being mislead in their purchase.

Absolutely. Maybe we should start asking for actual hatching pictures.

I too have purchased "cb" animals that were certainly not.
Some guidelines...
if it is a monitor (other than australian), ball python, frilled dragon, uromastyx, water dragon, iguana, advertised as "cb", definitely ask. If it is a "LTC" but you know a shipment recently came in, definitely ask....

Again, 100% in agreement. But let me be the devil's advocate here. Technically CH animals are born in captivity, right (in a farm, ranch, etc. but still in captivity)? Maybe we should let the differences not be so subtle, and state WHERE they were born (i.e. born in the US).

I have nothing against WC animals--

Neither do I as long as the quotas are respected and they are legally brought into the pet trade. The fact is that they are important in maintaining the genetic diversity of the captive population.

Regards.

It is true that a dealer can tell you whatever they want. I guess you have to just go with your gut on how they tell you, how much they tell you, and maybe how much hesitation they take before telling you I've experienced dealers getting defensive and pissy when asked "who bred this"--that closed the deal for me.

And actually, LOL, I take photos of all of our "questionable" species hatching out of the egg as "proof"--does it make a difference to the buyer?... I dont know. I remember Mickey Hinkle selling his frilled dragons several years ago with the egg--he sent it in the box with the dragon--now of course you could fake this too I suppose.

I'm betting that ball pythons are the worst, I think the BOI shows that to be the case.

And I will buy from a dealer that advertises WC straight up anyday over one that sugar coats or mislabels their recent imports. In fact, I might opt for as recent an import as possible over some of the questionable "LTC"s I see. At least that way you get em before they go through too many more hands.

Dana

And I will buy from a dealer that advertises WC straight up anyday over one that sugar coats or mislabels their recent imports. In fact, I might opt for as recent an import as possible over some of the questionable "LTC"s I see. At least that way you get em before they go through too many more hands.

Absolutely! The earlier they get to your hands (if you have experience with the species obviously) the better. Baby ball pythons are no exception. Then again who you buy them from makes also a huge difference. As you say it's important to go with your gut feeling too. When you have been around for a while you can read a lot "between the lines". Again as you say, you can tell when someone feels uncomfortable answering your questions. But you can also tell a lot when they are exceedingly friendly, if you know what I mean.

Regards.

Well It may not have to do with LTC but in many cases a wc animal is gone through tons of hands before it even gets to the pet shop.
First let me start with in a foreign country. Obviously this is only for wcs.
A person catches a reptile. He is told hell get 15 cents for it. So he catches 30 on a good day. Lets say they are Mellers Chameleons. A guy that has set up the network goes through alll the villages/towns picking up these animals. This is the middleman.
He then offers them to exporters for 10.00ea . Exporters bid on the animals, etc and they get split p. 10 to joe smoe, 13 to john Doe, 2 to so and so and 5 to Amhid solemanu or something.
The Exporters ship their animals out to importers for 30.00-35.00 or less. Say Joe Smoe is buddies with Exporter #2134 he trades his out. So far thats three hands with out the trade four with the trade. Eventually all mellers are exported. They are then in the hands of an importer. The importer puts him on his list for 50.00 after paying 30.00-35.00 with all costs(this is a estimate not for fact). A jobber or a wholesaler buys some. The jobber might sell them to individuals on the net, or at shows. It ends there unless individual sells it or trades it off later or what not. So if it ends there it is 6 hands. If sold by a wholesaler who sells to a pet shop or jobber who then in turn sell it to a pet shop or individual and it ends there that is 8 hands.
Nowadays the exporters are smarter and get animals usually direct from trappers. thats two hands. They send off to importers who are now smarter and sell to pet shops cause you get alot more money then selling to wholesaler. Profits are higher and animals have only gone through 4 hands instead of 8. So nowadays animals have much better chances, etc then a while ago. But then realize that a while ago animals were caught fresh and the animals exchanged all happened wthin a day or two till exported and then another day or two after.
So which do you think is better? Back then or now?
I think now as people are having to pay more for stuff and are willing to turn a profit and you cant without good animals.
Mike

W/C =Wildcaught = ,wildcaught
LTC =longterm captive = ,w/c in captivity 1year or more
CB = captive born = ,parents were w/c
CBB = captive bred and born = , parents cb
CH = captive hatch = ,from w/c gravid female
F1 = first generation CBB
F2 = second generation CBB and on,and on.

This was written by Thomas. In my opinion it makes good sense.

Of course there will be always some that say 4-5 months in captivity is a LTC.

I'm still having trouble telling apart the terms CB and CBB. They seem to refer to the animal described and not to the sire and the dam. For example if the dam and sire were WC and they were bred in captivity, wouldn't the offspring be CBB too? Same goes for CH. The term to me implies more that they were born overseas (maybe I'm biased towards the example of ball pythons) than in the US. If a WC gravid imported female gives birth in the US, are they CH or CB? What's the difference between hatching in captivity and being born in captivity? Is it just semantics?

Regards.