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Old 05-25-2020, 09:31 AM   #491
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
....What are people thinking?
Great question!

I suspect that many are looking beyond their self appointed tyrant-shepherds and finally thinking for themselves.

Sure baa, baa, beats being being herded around, pitted against each other, constantly manipulated and intentionally terrified by falsified and coordinated "news". These links are in addition to the several links to false stories/footage I had already posted. This would be quickly called out as "propaganda" (gasp) if it happened in another country, but that could NEVER happen here, because we, as a people, are clearly WAY too smart to fall for propaganda...right?:

https://nationalfile.com/man-calls-o...virus-segment/

https://www.newswars.com/staged-vide...virus-footage/

https://nypost.com/2020/05/16/cnn-re...amera-was-off/

If things were nearly as bad as the hand-wringing, information-manipulating, LYING TV media claims, the simple, plain truth would be plenty scary enough. Why do they have to lie and exaggerate to keep us deathly afraid to even go out in fresh air, alone, without a mask?

https://www.frontpagemag.com/point/2...el-greenfield/

How many idiots did you see today, dutifully wearing their masks alone in their vehicles? Apparently, our "leaders" believe it is better to re-breath your own effluent than to risk infecting yourself in your car with this deadly, scary invisible enemy.

Jeeeze...who knows what could be the reason we get told so much crap?
https://thenationalpulse.com/politic...-media-summit/

Some REAL news, that you're just not going to see on propaganda TV:
The several states that opened up and I had suggested watching, have NOT seen any terrifying spikes in their new cases or fatalities:

https://nypost.com/2020/05/22/no-cor...tates-re-open/

I gotta guess they're lying...I mean, it's either them or mainstream media, and MSM would never lie to us...much.

Better stats from the CDC, now that they seem to choose to report more critically:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...scenarios.html

Fatality ratio (best estimate):
0-49: 0.0005
50-64: 0.002
65+: 0.013
Overall: 0.004

"symptomatic" hospitalization rates:
049: 0.017
5064: 0.045
65+: 0.074
overall: 0.034


So, across the board (young/old/infirm/in-patient care anyway), the supposed death rate is 4 persons per one thousand of who actually contract the disease, and those said to be infected that are sick enough to be hospitalized (no distinction between an ER visit and being admitted) are at 34 persons per one thousand.

Remember that this is the death rate for diagnosed patients only, NOT the death rate across the country's entire population, which many reports seem to allude to.

Be interesting to run the numbers on what one's actual risk is of even contracting the Chinese Coronavirus, but useful data is difficult to assemble...apparently.

If we have 347 million people in the US and there are a few less than 1,700,000 total cases, this means our chances of getting this Wuhan Coronavirus are one half of one percent (.004899). Of that one half of one percent, there is less than one half of one percent (,004) chance it will kill you. If you compound these odds, the average person's chance of getting killed by this run down into 2 one-thousandths of one percent (.00002). I would welcome any statistician to refine/correct these numbers, but they are still teeny-tiny.

Those odds are probably better than going into Baltimore, DC or Chicago after dark...or driving to work on the highway, taking the boat out alone, running a chain saw, climbing a ladder, hooking a Gaboon, or....

Odds like this are worth literally killing the country?

We have yet to see the full impact of this economic tragedy, and these 'bail-outs' are clearly bullshit to anyone giving it a moment's thought. The average taxpayer will pay back $17,000 for the $1,200 'stimulus check', due to the pork that went with the legislation. How does taking our money, using more than half of it for special interests and giving us less than 1/10th back help us, or our economy in ANY way?

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/...g-numbers.html

Such foolishness...but we gladly swallowed it. So sad, but at least the Kennedy Center and Planned Parenthood are secure - always most important in any pandemic environment.

Some people are being led to despair and beyond by what is becoming more and more clearly a propaganda campaign:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ns/3081706001/

Serious questions worthy of our CRITICAL THINKING consideration:

Is this REALLY about the Chinese virus and public safety, or is it actually about something else?

Why SO MUCH bullshit (from all quarters) if these (illegal) lockdowns and the continuing economic and emotional assault on our citizens really IS about public safety?


To ignore this will be our undoing as a free nation, but at least we'll have our masks on when it goes down.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 11:01 AM   #492
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
the average person's chance of getting killed by this run down.
Statistics are pliable, each side can pretty much make figures say something that reflects their view. I personally do not see Covid anywhere near as harmless as you apparently do. And I believe Covid to be a credible threat, so an overabundance of precautions can mean the difference between life and death.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 12:07 PM   #493
WebSlave
Yeah, the world is just chock full of propaganda today, and separating the truth from the misinformation is going to have to be a personal effort, I believe.

My choice is to be as cautious as I can afford to be. Connie and I are retired. We really do not have to go out much. So we don't. When we go into any building that has been occupied by other people, we choose to wear masks. Regardless of what anyone else is doing. OUR choice. OUR health is at stake.

Was it a wise choice to shut down businesses in order to try to curb the amount of person to person contact, hoping to at least slow down the rate of infections of a pathogen? I believe so. SOMETHING is going on, and at this point I don't believe very many people REALLY know what this coronavirus is capable of for the long term. You have to wonder how many people dismissed HIV at the beginning, and how differently they may think of their decisions a few years later. Those that are still alive, of course.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 01:10 PM   #494
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
Great question!

I suspect that many are looking beyond their self appointed tyrant-shepherds and finally thinking for themselves.
I'm pretty sure that is not the correct choice. Given that it is difficult to know exactly what is going on with Covid, its future effects, I think most rational people would take the safe, conservative path and stay out of harm's way.

It is intellectually easy to set up an evil straw man 'tyrant-shepherd' and so comforting to knock it down by having a fun day at the beach in the name of freedom.

So it IS a great question, what is propelling all these people to flock toward harm? Is it the lure of the new 'tyrant-shepherds', those who paint a comforting but false picture of low risk and economic health??

There is no reality that I can see that is soft and comforting. No matter what happens right now, there is an economic downturn due to closings/distancing (that saved countless lives, and a trade off I agree with) that will result in higher prices shortly, for people with lower or zero incomes. 'Opening up' as it is being done currently, with no thought to safety, merely delays and worsens this scenario as further infection creates a heavier burden.

Those who did not venture out, who have sensibly stored supplies, who live safely will still have their own difficulties, as soon as the previously thought-free and carefree, but inevitably Covid decimated grasshoppers have an epiphany, and realize their lack of thought doomed them, they will rationalize that it is their right to take what they want.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 02:27 PM   #495
AbsoluteApril
better safe than sorry IMO
Attached Images
 
 
Old 05-25-2020, 03:05 PM   #496
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
Statistics are pliable, each side can pretty much make figures say something that reflects their view.
I agree, they can be; "Figures lie, liars figure..."

That didn't happen here.

The math I used was simple division; 1.7 mil divided by 327 mil is .004899, the number I typed above. That number translates to 00.4899%, less than 1/2 of one percent. NO pliability there whatsoever, no manipulation.

The statistics I used were USGI stats "approved for our consumption". If you multiply .004899 by .004 (average fatality rate), you get the second figure I provided. Again, no smoke/no mirrors, just very plain math.
Quote:
I personally do not see Covid anywhere near as harmless as you apparently do. And I believe Covid to be a credible threat, so an overabundance of precautions can mean the difference between life and death.
At no point did I mean to indicate the Wuhan Coronavirus was "harmless" or not a threat, but that it is simply another a risk to be managed, like many risks most of us take daily. At some point, we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Bankruptcy, suicides, failed businesses, lifelong investments...poof, because 'risk'.

I'm glad you went there, though, because it makes it easy to illustrate a point.

Let's use an easy parallel that you will both understand and resent my use of enough to agree with me, and another application of an 'abundance of caution' that I do NOT approve of either:

[devil's advocate]
Venomous snakes can be extremely dangerous. A bite from a good-sized viper and most elapids can disfigure a person, and can even kill. In fact, what IF a person's 'pet' venomous gets loose and bites a child....OMG...let me catch my breath...

So it is quite clear that we should make venomous snakes illegal for everyone because someone might get sick or die. If we count all of the captive venomous held by hobbyists, that's a whole lot of potential dead children, so this problem is HUGE!!!
[/devils advocate]

Riddle: How does one situation differ from the other?

Both use induced fear of what might happen as a tool to remove your right to do something.

Both entail risk of both grave personal harm/death and injury or death to innocent others, so let's get real with our 'wait till it's totally safe' approach. We could make venomous snakes illegal unless you and everyone in your neighborhood has all appropriate types of anti-venom (or a vaccine) if we really believed that sort of response was necessary.

But wait, there's more! Once you get Crofab for everyone on your street, they move the goalposts out again and say that you need EMT training to administer fist aid for such a bite, just 'having' the Crofab isn't enough...

I don't believe all that crap for a second, but it makes perfect sense using the same logic of just laying low forever, because that's how long it's going to take them to say 'it's safe to come out'.

Risks can be managed. I have seat belts, a fire extinguisher, a defensive firearm, a snake hook...

We HAVE managed this risk. We have been shut down for MONTHS and the curve was indeed 'flattened'. There are people and their families truly suffering hardship over this forced shutdown.

It is getting harder and harder to believe the response we are expected to participate in is legitimately conceived and executed without guile. First, we had to 'flatten the curve', then we had to 'avoid a second wave', and now they want to 'wait for a vaccine'. Pffft... One cannot deny the goal posts still keep moving, while they are freely admitting that we never came close to the many flawed morbidity models.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 03:36 PM   #497
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
using the same logic of just laying low forever, because that's how long it's going to take them to say 'it's safe to come out'.
This caught my eye because it is false, because no one knows how long it will be before coming out is safer, although there is good evidence that vaccines aren't going to take forever. And the work at home changes mean that a lot of people can lie low for a fair amount of time. We're all worried about the economy, but I at least plan to do my best to stay alive through all this.

I think the unprotected throngs at the beaches are fools and worse. You may have a different perspective, and if so and you go out there, you are betting your life on it. You seem nice enough, I'll be sorry if the consequences of your actions catch up with you.

I like April's post, there is definitely truth there.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 03:44 PM   #498
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post
Yeah, the world is just chock full of propaganda today, and separating the truth from the misinformation is going to have to be a personal effort, I believe.
Agreed, and I have taken a great of deal personal effort to try to sort this stuff out too.
Quote:
My choice is to be as cautious as I can afford to be. Connie and I are retired. We really do not have to go out much. So we don't. When we go into any building that has been occupied by other people, we choose to wear masks. Regardless of what anyone else is doing. OUR choice. OUR health is at stake.
This is perfect..the way it should work. You are able to make good choices based on your personal situation and your personal evaluation of risks.

Some folks have these things forced upon them 'for their own good', because Lord knows the great unwashed populations cannot make decisions on their own and need their elite *representatives* and media to tell them what to think and feel.

Restrictions to our rights and liberty MIGHT be OK under **due process**, but not at the whim of a 'tyrant-shepard' (LOL Lucille) making unilateral decisions that affect the lives and quality of life for the people they are supposed to *represent*. If the state convenes a general assembly and passes a legal resolution, that is another thing entirely.
Quote:
Was it a wise choice to shut down businesses in order to try to curb the amount of person to person contact, hoping to at least slow down the rate of infections of a pathogen? I believe so.
I too think it was a wise choice, but we DID that and now, things are changing.
Quote:
SOMETHING is going on, and at this point I don't believe very many people REALLY know what this coronavirus is capable of for the long term. You have to wonder how many people dismissed HIV at the beginning, and how differently they may think of their decisions a few years later. Those that are still alive, of course.
Of course we don't know.

We also don't know when the next near-earth object will alter our lifestyles either... I live a few miles from NASA and a have attended the "Space defense' seminars and I KNOW they don't know.

There's a lot we don't know, but we can't stay under the covers forever.

In my mind, this Chinese virus is very much like this 'war on terrorism' we still endure. Terrorism has been waged against our population and assets in an attempt to destroy our way of life. When we suddenly changed everything to reduce our liberties and privacy to "make us safe", the terrorism had won - we did lose our lifestyle. The cure was probably worse than the problem. Just that simple.

Now, we face what seems to be an engineered virus and the following facts are coming to light:
1) The virus was developed in, and escaped from, the only Level 4 containment facility in China - the Wuhan lab.
2) CCP closed off Wuhan from the rest of China, whilst allowing international air traffic to continue, effective seeding the planet with this disease.
3) While seeding the world, China quietly bought up PPE from the world over, stockpiling gear while the WHO (presided over by an China-installed executive) denied the seriousness of the illness, denied transmission through dry surfaces, through air and through person-to-person contact.
4) Once the Wuhan Virus became known and widespread, China then sold the PPE back out to the world, at many times the original cost/pricing, along with a lot of PPE that failed QC and didn't work.

Those are facts.

Another fact that doen't get a lot of air time is that China was only shut down for 16 days...Go ahead...speculate...I do...

My reaction to these facts is that even IF China did not release this intentionally, they DID do everything they could to make it about as bad as possible. They denied help, evaded questions, denied knowledge and falsified information that may have helped to contain this early on.

Like it or not, and we are all entitled to our opinions, this actually constitutes an attack. If not deliberate, then every effort to exacerbate the situation was taken to our detriment.

Believing this is an attack, makes me not want to let them destroy our country, which IS happening right now, as we snuggle under the blankets, safe and warm.

That Wall Street is heavily invested in Chinese manufacturing, that many of our politicians enjoy 'special relationships' with China (like Feinstein's chauffeur) and are also heavily invested, that much of the media is invested both in China and in the politicians, has HUGE bearing on what we are fed and I expect the truth to surface about as easily as getting all of your wisdom teeth out in one trip.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 03:44 PM   #499
AbsoluteApril
a venomous snake bite victim is neither asymptomatic nor contagious

Flattening the curve and trying to avoid a second wave all seem like good goalposts to avoid more deaths. Sadly so many either 'don't believe the hype' or have the 'it's won't happen to me' mentality that is ends up putting others at unneeded potential risk.

Where is the line? How much is too much? Hard to say.

If this is all some conspiracy for government police state or something, it's pretty amazing how the whole world is in on it.
 
Old 05-25-2020, 04:37 PM   #500
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
I'm pretty sure that is not the correct choice. Given that it is difficult to know exactly what is going on with Covid, its future effects, I think most rational people would take the safe, conservative path and stay out of harm's way.

It is intellectually easy to set up an evil straw man 'tyrant-shepherd' and so comforting to knock it down by having a fun day at the beach in the name of freedom.

So it IS a great question, what is propelling all these people to flock toward harm? Is it the lure of the new 'tyrant-shepherds', those who paint a comforting but false picture of low risk and economic health??
Regarding the beach people, I admit that I really don't know what to think. I personally would not be out there, but I don't skydive or sword swallow either...some do.

I agree with you that they may be flocking to their own demise, but at the same time, I believe things are not as horrific as they tell us.

As long as the epople giving us "news" are putting masks on for the camera, then taking them off after the scene is happening, I have to believe it is a manipulative scare tactic, but let's not call things by their right names...

This is a great opportunity to witness a true litmus test, fortunately/unfortunately. What if they don"t all die? What if they all don't even get sick? My opinion is that the media is afraid they won't die, the cat will be out of the bag and the circus will decay. We'll be back to work, the economy can begin recovery and it will be safe to vote at the polls in person.

If you had been following the antics of the Michigan governor, you would understand my use of the 'tyrant-sheperd' description, and I really should have added 'ambiguous'.

A tyrant in fact, and in action, a very easy example is that she has determined that a gay night club is OK and 'essential' while arresting and fining businesses like barber shops for *defying* her (illegal) orders. People who are trying to save their businesses, employees and their a$$es are being arrested for 'disorderly conduct'. Close them all or don't close any of them.

A self-proclaimed shepard, in fact, as she tells them all what's best for their own good. Only she knows, obviously.

She isn't the only one, there are others. Did we discuss the Illinois governor that pronounced a total lockdown for normal subjects, then took workers to his own mansion? If he actually though we were at risk, would this happen? Hahahaha..no, it wouldn't

No one is painting a picture of low risk, but of rampant hypocrisy and a time to get the economy back moving again before we truly do tank (Hooray for China, though!).

Quote:
There is no reality that I can see that is soft and comforting. No matter what happens right now, there is an economic downturn due to closings/distancing (that saved countless lives, and a trade off I agree with) that will result in higher prices shortly, for people with lower or zero incomes. 'Opening up' as it is being done currently, with no thought to safety, merely delays and worsens this scenario as further infection creates a heavier burden.
Your state 'opened up' with no ill effects - what happened?

How is it that it's OK for Texas to open up without seeing the much decried spikes? Or Georgia, or Florida?

How is it OK to go to Wallmart and rub elbows with the multitudes, but not OK to get a haircut?

How is it OK to go to the hardware store and buy a light bulb, but not a pack of vegetable seeds?

Rhetorical questions, of course, but intended to provoke thought.

Quote:
Those who did not venture out, who have sensibly stored supplies, who live safely will still have their own difficulties, as soon as the previously thought-free and carefree, but inevitably Covid decimated grasshoppers have an epiphany, and realize their lack of thought doomed them, they will rationalize that it is their right to take what they want.
Whew, and I though I was flirting with 'cavalier'...

I have supplies...I have a job... You and I can be counted among the more fortunate souls, and not having to go out by necessity probably makes it easier to justify staying in for *everyone*.

Not everyone is living well enough to put aside a stockpile of supplies. Many people in this country live 'hand-to-mouth' and do not have the luxury of being prepared for any event. Unfortunate, surely not prudent, but true.

To say they lack thought might be a at least a little bit judgemental and harsh. Perhaps they did think about it, but couldn't. Even if they do have an epiphany, what then? Suicide?
 

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