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Old 05-26-2020, 07:54 PM   #511
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post
Yeah, this is quite an interesting, and as best I can tell, quite accurate, assessment of the situation. Point of the matter is that this could be construed as an act of war.
It's all about "intentions"...eh?

Surely China (more correctly/precisely 'the CCP') would never do anything not in the best interests of the USA...with their Zero-Sum negotiation games.

Quote:
I would imagine that the discussion about this behind closed doors involves the question of whether or not the USA can afford a hot war with China....
I have to think you're right, and all possible scenarios will be played out, except the few we didn't think of. My opinion is that neither the CCP nor us want a hot war, and I don't even want to think about our state of readiness. "Posturing" and "Face"...
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Greed in the USA allowed the Chinese to place us over a barrel by gutting our industry and turning us into simply importers and resellers.
True, greed on all levels...hard to turn down a $20 pair of tennis shoes, or even a $100,000 "book deal".
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What happens if China simply refuses to sell the USA anything any longer?
China has very important interests to consider; corn...soybeans...cash...coal (for now)... Never forget that WE have been their cash cow for several decades... I'll bet they are doing a little 'interest balancing' too.
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And I don't believe for an instant that this wasn't intentional on China's part.
As I had said, I am certain they did everything they could to make this worse.

Aside from possibly being a "primer" that will accept a "catylist" later, such as predisposing us to just drop dead when Virus Part Duex is inflicted upon us, I lean away from this being an intentional bioweapon. I would not rule out that it is a stepping stone, and early reports did suggest they had blended several virus strains to promote penetration into human cells, but it is simply not decisive enough, universal enough, fast enough, to be an effective weapon, unless the cure becomes worse than the illness. Of course, that could NEVER happen here...I mean, we would never shoot off our toe to get rid of that pesky hangnail, or would we? Psychological warfare truly IS the best thing since sliced bread...

Ever consider the timing? Many folks do not realize that the proven-to-be-empty** 'articles of impeachment' were held up for weeks, but then suddenly dumped in the Senate at the exact same time the virus went public? The committee knew they didn't have a case, said it was such an 'urgent matter' that they couldn't follow protocols, but then stalled out in mid-sentence. Here, watch my left hand (mu 'peachmint) while my right hand slips a finger in... (suppression of virus info)

**Don't believe me, look at any/ALL of the 53 transcripts of "witness" testimony before the committee that does not have ONE person state that they had ANY evidence of wrongdoing, but this farce went on...and on... In fact, some people actually stated under oath that they provided the media with false talking points to push. Pushed by people we trusted, well sorta trusted. I can't blame them though, any of us might lie, cheat and steal if they are literally fighting to stay out of prison, and maybe for their lives, but that's another story that's finally rapidly falling together...
https://www.dni.gov/index.php/featur...ci-transcripts
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Why do you think they tried hard not to become dependent on imports from the USA and there has always been that huge trade deficit?
From the land of origin of Sun Tsu, of course they haven't become dependent, and further, they bought their way into our government with our own money for influence in their favor of these 'they win' deals, but that too is another story...
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I strongly suspect that the USA government knows a LOT more about this virus than they are admitting publicly. But that information is quite likely the equivalent of having a tiger by it's tail. What are the USA's options? It appears to me that the option chosen, for now, is simply biting their tongues.
I'd agree. Time is on our side when it comes to facts coming to light. No good to jump ahead prematurely, not until all the rats have shown themselves and the dogs are in place.
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"Made in China" was a long term strategy of war, IMHO. And it appears to be a successful one, at that.
Absolutely. Without making a big case of circumstantial evidence to make solid assertions (and there is a BIG case), all I have are my opinions regarding this.

We have been infiltrated by the CCP on many levels.

Feinstein's chauffeur was found to be an active agent for many years, and that's just one low-hanging fruit. I am confident that a good portion of our life-time politicians are compromised, some just a little, some a LOT. "Follow The Money", and see who is investing where, and who is getting rich on their $200k yearly salaries. One prominent person in congress makes about $230k/year, but has gained a net worth is $23 million since taking office. Seems surprising, but simple math shows that this person must have just saved every last penny during their 100+ year career - amazing show of character and self-discipline!! Shrewd investing pays off too. This same person left a high-level meeting discussing national shutdowns and immediately invested $5 million in Amazon, knowing they were going to disable normal retailers and Amazon would go big. So yeah, great to have such "smart" people in charge of the country, a big "help"...

Many of our politicians and mainstream media make WAAAY too many excuses and cover stories for the CCP at every juncture to not have anything at stake. As a naive bystander for most of my life, I always wondered offhandedly 'how come SO MUCH stuff comes from China?' and was always satisfied with the too-pat answers "child labor" and "gov subsidized manufacturing", but it's been much more than that. Look at the stifled industries that would exploit our natural resources, and notice the creep of the gov regulations choking them off and meantime, the gov employees and media personalities invested offshore. That investment money is used to subsidize manufacturing to undercut our domestic industry.

Our people in power, both actual power and power of persuasion, are quite literally betting against us with their investment money. Nothing to see here, though...move along, move along.
 
Old 05-26-2020, 11:49 PM   #512
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post

Personally, my solution would be to simply have people who have no overriding necessary reason to be out and about and choose to not play this as safe as then can, just accept a waiver of society's medical responsibility for them.
Yes, they should be free to assume financial responsibility
for their decisions.
Attached Images
 
 
Old 05-27-2020, 07:48 AM   #513
E.Shell
<Grin>
Not trying to kill the world here, but clearly, someone should point out that there is STILL a very clear difference between "quarantine" (forcible confinement of specific sick/contagious people) and the forcible confinement/removal of civil rights of a healthy, law abiding population of citizens (tyranny).

I would add that the courts are seeing it this way too.
https://katu.com/news/local/baker-co...s-restrictions
https://www.redstate.com/smoosieq/20...at-home-order/
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/13/u...eme-court.html

As does the DOJ, who points out that the Constitution, enumerating OUR rights, is still relevant.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/page/file/1271456/download
Quote:
Many policies that would be unthinkable in regular times have become commonplace in recent weeks, and we do not want to unduly interfere with the important efforts of state and local officials to protect the public. But the Constitution is not suspended in times of crisis. We must therefore be vigilant to ensure its protections are preserved, at the same time that the public is protected.
History shows that when one of our rights are put aside under ANY justification, we will never get the it back.

Look at gun control, very serious restrictions on a VERY clearly enumerated civil right that gets worse every time a mal-adjusted high school punk goes off his meds..."because the children". Of course, anyone who has honestly and seriously studied the subject knows these laws only affect people who would never do such a thing. But let's wring our hands and 'do something'.

Look at the 1st Amendment, there are now "free speech 'zones'", where protesters are kept out of sight of news cameras and other participants during certain events. I find this particularly disturbing, because the messages WE have a right to deliver are muted by the authority they reject.

These rights are being traded for and replaced with the "'right' to feel safe", the "'right' to not be offended' and other such feel-good BS...

Seriously, I am not about trying to inflict this Chinese CoronaVirus on the US population, but the disease is not the only consideration of what's really happening here. Again, we trade freedom for perceived safety, and we HAVE been warned about this very thing:
Quote:
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
 
Old 05-27-2020, 10:43 AM   #514
Lucille
You have appeared to have forgotten an entire part of the equation in your adorable eagerness to talk about rights. Others, more seasoned, have touched upon the truth that with rights, come responsibilities. Fighting for rights is important. Realizing that the exercise of those rights may incur cost both personal and financial, and being willing to pick up the tab, is also important.

No one questions that the idiots at the beach will have a higher rate of infection. You appear to be saying it is the right of those idiots to run the risks they see fit to take , and the government should not interfere.

Like the freeloader who all of a sudden cannot find his wallet when the restaurant check comes, you have assiduously avoided talk of responsibility, particularly financial responsibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post

Personally, my solution would be to simply have people who have no overriding necessary reason to be out and about and choose to not play this as safe as then can, just accept a waiver of society's medical responsibility for them. Then they can go on about their life in the manner they choose to do so. But if their choices turn out to be poor ones, well, get out of my way and don't take up a slot in the hospital emergency room if my wife or I need to go to the hospital in case our more cautious attempts to avoid the contagion fail. If you make your choices, fine, you need to take your own responsibility for the results of those choices. You made a mistake, so you bear the consequences, no one else. And no one else should have to suffer because of your mistake. Seems simple enough, doesn't it? You catch the virus, we don't OWE you a thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
The schmucks that partied, and lived but are damaged? That would take some thought. There is a point where 'thinking for yourself' and insisting that you have the freedom to gather and party despite the risks, means taking personal responsibility for your actions.
 
Old 05-27-2020, 08:22 PM   #515
E.Shell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille View Post
You have appeared to have forgotten an entire part of the equation in your adorable eagerness to talk about rights.
Awww, you're so cute when you're being demeaning.
Quote:
Others, more seasoned, have touched upon the truth that with rights, come responsibilities. Fighting for rights is important. Realizing that the exercise of those rights may incur cost both personal and financial, and being willing to pick up the tab, is also important.
Of course rights come with responsibility, but we're on a very slippery scope when we start rolling over for faux terrified politicians and mask flipping media personalities. Having the legitimacy of The People's representatives weighing in on these unilateral decisions would provide weight of law and proper operation of the republic. Following the law would be a plus too, but I digress. As it is, it seems that The People's representatives are fighting the governor's mansion over this in more than one state.
Quote:
No one questions that the idiots at the beach will have a higher rate of infection. You appear to be saying it is the right of those idiots to run the risks they see fit to take , and the government should not interfere.
Those idiots are other humans, presumably citizens, who superficially seem to have as much right to go out as you have to condemn them. How is it that your own wisdom, or mine, prevails over the other's?

As I said earlier, I don't agree with them and it is a risk I would not take, along with skydiving, etc., but the fact remains that they DO have rights that can only be legally revoked with just cause and due process. I would think that in any encounter with the guv or legal system, zoning, etc., we ALL would like to be subjected to just cause and due process.

If one has a vehicle accident and kills even one person, how do they ever make that up? How does one 'take responsibility' for something that. Maybe I'd better quit driving...just in case that might happen. Or maybe, I'll work on managing my driving risks; regular vehicle maintenance, drive sober, make sure passengers use seat belts and drive defensively. Hmm, maybe I CAN drive some more...who should I ask?

From a financially secure and physically snug spot, it can be easy to lose sight what isn't being pounded on TV. There are many people suffering because others are afraid of what might happen. Sure, some folks just want to cavort, some are even going to frolic, I can sorta remember that, but a lot of people and small businesses are in dire straits, and the slim justification for their personal and financial ruin is growing thinner by the day.

A certain amount of caution, a prudent shutdown, does/did seem necessary, but we DID that. Now, in the presence of ever increasing evidence that this thing has been overblown, both with regard to morbidity, with transmission, with lasting side effects, with immunity to all drugs, with ridiculously bad 'models', with the sky falling...it is increasingly hard to believe and harder to justify (as if) the confinement of healthy people with a full set of civil rights. Again, confinement of healthy people is not quarantine. Using the word quarantine here is a lie that hides the truth. "Call things by their right names...'

I know you're tired of hearing about others rights, but I do feel pretty strongly that the continuing erosion has to stop everywhere it can be stopped. This has been a most dangerous precedent. This is not just my opinion, but the court's as well, which are invoking the standing law of the land to try to stop the overreach. I placed links to just three states' examples previously.

I quit training SWAT cops because one day, I made a comment as they joked about a little brutality in the jail where they worked (many municipality SWAT team members handle prisoners at the local lockup while waiting for a call out, so they are consolidated and centralized). I suggested to him that these people have rights and his response was "Well, when you deal with these people day in and day out, it's hard to remember they have their little rights.". "...hard to remember their little rights...". This sort of answer is both unacceptable and illuminating. After talking around it a little more, it surfaces that if you are not a government official at some level (vetted as good guys, apparently), you and your little rights are going to be hard to remember. That was the last day I had SWAT on my range.

I see a lot of people these days saying 'THEIR little rights', and it is a symptom of a larger problem and a very dangerous line of thought for our republic. Those rights are OURS.
Quote:
Like the freeloader who all of a sudden cannot find his wallet when the restaurant check comes, you have assiduously avoided talk of responsibility, particularly financial responsibility.
LOL, nice one, but lets please go back to facts and civil discourse. I have avoided nothing.

This is obviously a very subjective decision we are discussing and there may well be no right answer when it comes to how soon we should resume normal operations. This focused aspect of a very broad subject is obviously your sore point and I would like to avoid that. Nothing to be gained to argue this further, especially since we seem to be so far apart on it and neither can prove there even IS a correct answer. I'm pretty sure we won't change each other's minds, so why labor at it? Peace, brother!

I welcome the truth and facts, and the discussion thereof. While we social distance and shelter in place, waiting for everyone around us to drop dead, lets mask up and dig for information that might prove helpful to our understanding of this situation. Like 'where'd the money go?' and 'who is benefiting by these continued shenanigans?' and 'why is mail-in voting SO important to curing this?' and interesting stuff like that.

Anybody heard anything from our Chinese mentors lately?
 
Old 05-28-2020, 09:30 AM   #516
Lucille
Interesting info: Covid and the next generation. There is still so much unknown risk associated with Covid:

https://news.northwestern.edu/storie...n-show-injury/
 
Old 05-28-2020, 12:23 PM   #517
AbsoluteApril
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
Now, in the presence of ever increasing evidence that this thing has been overblown,
personally I don't agree with this statement
edit to add - and everyone is entitled to their opinion
I am not asking you to come post a bunch more links to try to prove me wrong.
My opinion was formed on information I have found.

A big problem is there is a lot of misleading information and numbers being kept quiet both in the US and from other countries abroad
all we can do is form our best opinion based on what research and information (first hand and third party) we find and try to be as safe and proactive as possible
 
Old 05-28-2020, 03:11 PM   #518
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post

I know you're tired of hearing about others rights
I never tire of discussing rights, but you continue to avoid discussing responsibilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post

If one has a vehicle accident and kills even one person, how do they ever make that up? How does one 'take responsibility' for something that.
Depending on the circumstances you may end up owing a VERY large sum to the estate/family of the person who died. You may end up incarcerated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
Maybe I'd better quit driving...just in case that might happen. Or maybe, I'll work on managing my driving risks; regular vehicle maintenance, drive sober, make sure passengers use seat belts and drive defensively. Hmm, maybe I CAN drive some more...who should I ask?
And one can manage Covid risks as well. Not go to a crowded beach.

But if one doesn't, and unnecessarily exposes ones self and gets infected, and then, worse, infects others, one should not expect the government or those you injured to pay. There are financial responsibilities for those 'rights'





Quote:
Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril View Post
all we can do is form our best opinion based on what research and information (first hand and third party) we find and try to be as safe and proactive as possible
 
Old 05-28-2020, 04:08 PM   #519
WebSlave
You know, I've been wondering with this contact tracing and such, could someone who contracts this virus from another sue that source for damages? Particularly in the case when such person acted in an irresponsible manner concerning taking reasonable precautions against spreading the infection?

I thought I read something a while back about congress considering (or perhaps they already have passed something) concerning exempting work places from liability if this (and I guess future others) virus is found to have been spread within a workplace. So apparently there are potential liability concerns.

Heck, I read that there were lawsuits being considered against China. Which have, at best, a snowball's chance in hell of going anywhere.

But I guess irrefutable proof of liability might be hard to come by. And certainly the defense would be that perhaps the person contracting the virus did not take adequate precautions themselves.

And I don't imagine many people would be wanting to go into a courtroom these days anyway. Because that might introduce even more liability if someone were to become exposed to the virus there. I think if I were to get a jury duty summons, I would play that card and try hard to get out of it based on that argument.

BTW, has anyone else noticed in their area that law enforcement vehicles are practically nonexistent these days? The few times Connie and I have been out we haven't seen ANY around here. But I guess they wouldn't publicize it if they have suspended enforcing traffic violations.

Enough rambling idle thoughts.....
 
Old 05-28-2020, 06:02 PM   #520
Lucille
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebSlave View Post

But I guess irrefutable proof of liability might be hard to come by. And certainly the defense would be that perhaps the person contracting the virus did not take adequate precautions themselves.
An interesting thought. And as you know, irrefutable proof is not required, the civil standard is 'more likely than not'. There are different groups of people:seriously ill patients, children, particularly infants, and perhaps, husbands and wives, that clearly rely on others to take precautions.

In any case, it is too soon to judge how serious the 'opening up' and increasing exposure irresponsible or not, are in bringing further waves of illness. I think April's idea of being as safe and proactive as possible is the best choice.
 

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