Killing 100's and 1000's for the mighty dollar

Thanx for you thoughts Steve. I wanted to get other views and others input. I am not a breeder so i don't fit into that catagory so no harm no foul. I am doing what i said i was and that's not purchasing reptiles, cages, supplies from those who do. I if i am going to purchase from who ever i check their  lists. If i see those type of ads i go elsewhere and let them know why i did so. If you consider my post b---ching so be it i will b--ch until i die. None the less thanx for your input as far as the topic goes.

you all might be interested in checking out the recent thread  on ball python imports in the kingsnake boa forum.  Robyn from Proexotics had some interesting stats.

Dana

Be careful who you agree with in a thread like this. Do some research before you answer. Don't just research the Ball Python dilemma, but look at other similar issues that have arisen in the past and check out the results of those. The people posting lots of the emotionally inflammatory rhetoric herein may actually be trying to get herpers (note I did not say fellow herpers) to agree so that they can strengthen there own stand, one that may not be beneficial to the continuation of the herping hobby. What I mean is be careful of the wolf in sheep's clothing. The people saying oooohhh look at how awful this is for the snakes, maybe extremely happy when you agree because now those people can show that even snakekeepers agree with them. If those people are members of groups like PETA or the Humane Society of the US - my belief (and this is just my personal opinion) is WATCH OUT. Now they would be able to show that they have the support of members of the actual groups that they have been trying to squash (herp owners if I understand them correctly are one of their targets). I am not saying that this is the case here, I am simply saying that it is a possibility that it could happen, and this is just the type of issue where we would be given enough rope to hang ourselves.

So b careful when you call for extremist measures such as complete bans on imports, be even more careful when you agree with someone who does, especially if you do not know the complete agenda of the people calling for such extremes, and be careful of those who would capitalize on our agreeing that such extremes are necessary.

Please note that I am not giving my opinion about the issues of whether or not there should be an extreme move like a total ban on imports, but am just giving a friendly warning about those who I believe (in my personal opinion) would maybe try to screw us with our own words. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>

Dana, I glanced at one of Robyn's posts concerning baby balls and was amused that even though this time of year &quot;makes him sick,&quot; &nbsp;his company still participates in the baby ball market every year. &nbsp;I also find it amusing that so many people choose to complain about the practice even though they themselves participate. &nbsp;If you own a herp, it's bloodlines can be traced to the wild, plan and simple. &nbsp;I don't think it's fair, for now experienced herpers, to complain about dealers selling baby balls and savannahs to an eager public, when they themselves either used to be part of that eager public, or where they were once the dealers themselves. &nbsp;Just because your herp business has now progressed to be one that deals w/ nothing but c.b.b. high dollar animals, don't forget what got you there. &nbsp;Many of the &quot;BIG Names&quot; in this industry made the money that got them where they are from albino burms. &nbsp;Those bloodlines can be traced to the albino burms IMPORTED by Tom Crutchfield years agos. &nbsp;Many of those same people now &quot;look down their noses&quot; at dealers selling imported animals. &nbsp;Hypocritical if you ask me.
This is an industry. &nbsp;As with all industrys, we live and die by our customers. &nbsp;When our customers no longer want imported baby balls and savannahs we will stop selling them, until then, if you don't want them, don't buy them.

I agree about people having an agenda. I have none. My point is bringing these animals in by the ton is ridiculus.

Of course all herps came from wild caught no one is denying that. &nbsp;Your point? You as well as everyone selling thm have to know what damage is being done.
I happily spend my money with those who don't buy herps of any kind by the thousands and don't buy from those of you who do it's that simple.
I love when people ask what are you doing to stop this instead of complaining. Ask yourself the same question when you finish selling you inventory of thousands of imports.
What does the fact that known breeders have moved away fom wc and sell cb/cbb? They may have sold some wc or strengthened their blood lines not a problem. It's good they did.
I guess when it's all said and done those who can will and those who can't won't (survive).
Glenn Bartley, i don't and never worked for the ASPCA and i would never work or have anything to do with PETA as i disagree with their views. If you believe i started this in an emotionally inflammatory way to spread &nbsp;rhetoric then you are not seeing what i typed.

Brian Conley, you are right until people stop buying from those selling cheap , disposable herps, i guess you and others will continue to sell them. Last thing, i know you always inform your customers how difficult it is to get these imports started feeding, and to take the snake they bought for 20.00 to the vet and get it treated and that it could cost them 7X or more what they paid for it if it survives?. Do you suggest they buy your cb ones (if you have any) for more money but they are healthy and feeding and will give them years of enjoyment instead of tossing it in a trash can because they weren't told the difficulties that lay ahead and the animal failed to thrive?
Joel Holloman

A point I just thought of. Many industries have trade tariffs and quotas to protect the native industries (steel being one that was in the news recently). If this were done so that a CB would sell at the same rate as an import but at a level that is profitable for the breeders then you would see more breeders and less imports.

Joe Bloe General Public Person going from booth to booth at a reptile show or looking through the mom/pop petstore doesn't know what WC and CB means. They see snake A for $x and snake B for $x+5. They will 9 times out of 10 buy snake A UNLESS they are educated in why snake B is worth $5 more and convinced that justifies the price.

In an open market place demand always drives sales. If vendor A refuses to sell a product then the gap will be filled by another vendor. I've seen a few posts on the BOI where someone has inquired about a vendor, gotten negative responses about them and then bought anyhow, only to be burned and come back to complain. Customers do not purchase based upon logical decisions (as a rule of thumb). One of those illogical reasons is &quot;getting a deal&quot;. As a society we place a point of pride (peer pressure) on getting a good deal and saving a buck. As a vendor you will need to override (you can't remove the impulse) that purchase impulse with one stronger (quality). [sorry, I wrote a paper for a marketing class on why consumers purchase <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''> ].

Joel, I don't think Glenn was &quot;targeting&quot; you per se but rather just throwing up a caution flag. He is correct in that lobby groups will utilize ANY sliding of our position as herpers to get the momentum on their side.

Thanx Daniel i justed wanted to make clear that i have no affiliation with any group what so ever. I do appreciate your opinion here and the way you stated it. &nbsp;If we want to keep outsiders from getting involved in herp related issues i think those out there who are giving them ammo should act responsible and think about the fall out over the long term and not the short term financial gain..

I can't complain about importation of snakes.
I am sure the ones I have originated from wild caught adults somewhere in their blood line.

I am not gonna say..&quot;I will not buy ANYTHING from someone who imports animals&quot; &nbsp;because...SURPRISE.......somewhere along the line I would not have my animals if it were'nt for imports.

I'm not complaining about the importation of wild animals as everyone knows they come from wild caught. The topic was the importation of thousand upon thousands which all herps are not.
I think most know that somewhere along the line reptiles come from imports but buying from someone who sells them in 100 lots &quot;wild caught&quot; is not good &quot;SURPRISE&quot;.... One thing i'm glad of is they stopped importing Prehensile Tail Skinks and now those who want them have to pay a higher price to get them. At the rate balls are going they hopefully will fall under the same umbrella...

Joel, I'll assume you were being sarcastic when you said you were sure I told customers about all that stuff. &nbsp;If you weren't, then you've probably been to one of my tables somewhere. &nbsp;The truth is, yes, I tell the customer everything they are willing to listen to. &nbsp;Just this weekend I spent 10 mins. basically begging a woman not to buy an iguana, she nodded politely and bought it anyway. &nbsp;I had three groups of balls on the table. &nbsp;Labeled as follows: &nbsp;&quot;c.b.fresh from the farm,&quot; &quot;c.b. feeding,&quot; and &quot;c.b. pastels feeding.&quot; &nbsp;The public chose to buy two pastels, the flea market guy took 3 of the fresh from the farm. &nbsp;All the animals came from the same place, the only difference was that the feeding groups came in a week sooner so I had a chance to feed them. &nbsp;There's a market for both, so I'll cater to both.
The damage that you speak of will happen whether we buy all the babies or not. &nbsp;The people of third world countries MUST use every means at their disposal just to stay alive, exporting animals is one of those means. &nbsp;My opinion is either we take them as pets or they will shipped to asia for food, or killed for their skins. &nbsp;I like my plan better. &nbsp;
Finally, your opinion of imported and w.c. herps is extremely poor. &nbsp;Does it come from personal experience or just what you've read and heard. &nbsp;I ask because I deal w/ 100's if 1000's of these animals every year and frankly if I had half the problems you're expecting from them I would have pulled my hair out and ran away screaming long ago. &nbsp;The fact of the matter is that most of the animals is questions do very well in captivity with very little &quot;special&quot; care. &nbsp;I think one of the reasons we see so many balls, savannahs, niles, uros, etc, is because they readily adapt to life in captivity. &nbsp;Yes, we still get animals like forest hingeback torts that don't do well, but at least some do survive because they do find good homes w/ knowledgable people, instead of a stew pot in somebody elses'. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>